John Illsley, bassist from Dire Straits, was somewhat mediocre by the standards of the band. I seem to recall that there were grumblings about him from other members of the band in the early days but he was (is, I guess) a very good friend of Mark Knopfler and he never actually does anything wrong as such. ISTR hearing Mark Knopfler asked about Illsley’s abilities and as Knopfler is generally a straight talker and not given to bullshit he was clearly a bit uncomfortable with the question. The gist was that Illsley was, ahem, a solid and useful part of the band not least because he had a much better head for management and business than Knopfler.
I’m going to nominate Mick Fleetwood and John McVie of… of… the name of the band escapes me ;). I fully admit that I know very little about bass playing and wouldn’t recognise a good drummer if he played a paradiddle on my own head. For all I know they are a perfectly decent rhythm section, so this may fall into the “relatively untalented”, or “lucky” categories. But I was watching a Story of Fleetwood Mac thingy a while ago and it struck me how fortunate those two were with their careers. Peter Green was very much the star of version one of the band, but was somewhat averse to fame and fortune and was kind enough to name the band after its rhythm section, something that Fleetwood was humbly grateful for.
Green left, but Christine Perfect joined up and turned out to be a great songwriter. Then some years later, while the band was between guitarists, Fleetwood happened to overhear a searing solo coming from the next studio. It was Lindsey Buckingham, who agreed to join the band, on the condition that his musical partner and girlfriend, somebody called Stevie Nicks, came along with him. That was two more world-class songwriters into the band, and mega-success ensued. But Fleetwood and John McVie hardly have any writing credits to their names.
Discussing his song “Go Your Own Way”, Buckingham mentioned that the drum pattern at the start evolved because Fleetwood just couldn’t get the triplet feel that Buckingham wanted. So I got from that the perhaps unfair impression that Fleetwood was not a particularly great drummer.
Well, speaking as a bassist, I have to say that McVie and Fleetwood are one tight-ass rhythm section. One of the most important things I’ve learned from playing bass for about 26 years is that in the rhythm section, what you don’t play is often as important as what you do play. I’ve always thought Mick’s drum pattern on that song was perfect. It creates so much musical tension during the verses, and then releases all that tension as he switches to a more straight-ahead groove for the chorus. It’s possible that Mick just thought the song would suck the way Buckingham wanted (I mean, he didn’t have any trouble with the triplet feel on “Don’t Stop”). I’m reminded a bit of that scene in the movie, “That Thing You Do”, when the band got the new drummer to sit in with them, and when they played the title song, he kicked it off much faster than the singer intended the song to be (he’d written it as a slow ballad), and it ended up much better.
Which is a silly way to determine if he was a good drummer. I suppose compared to a couple guitarists he is a great drummer but compared to other drummers he sucks? I suppose he is a sucky guitarist compared to Steven Vai…:rolleyes:
I don’t have an opinion about Manuel’s playing, but pretty much every note Garth Hudson plays makes my ears perk. Right now I’m remembering that spooky part in Stage Fright and smiling.
And of course Hudson was known as being the “classically trained” musician in the Band.
Oops, just switched to thinking about Hudson’s solo in All La Glory, smiling.
Never once did I say that I was basing my thought purely on his drumming ability. In fact, if you had the ability to comprehend what you read, you would have noticed that I mentioned his singing and songwriting skills, as well. Much like my post about Michelle Williams, the rest of the band sets a bar too high for Ringo to be able to jump over.
Not to say that Ringo wasn’t talented. Just that he wasn’t as talented as the other Beatles.
Masters of Reality - Sunrise On The Sufferbus. Ginger’s best work, and I’m including the hot mess that was Cream in that.
I’m surprised that the thread has made it this far without mentioning Kerry King of Slayer. I know that he’s kind of an icon in thrash metal for those…solos…of his, but we’re talking about a guy that the band made go take guitar lessions well after they were established and had released plenty of albums. No doubt that he has a ton of attitude and is a huge part of Slayer, but everything awesome guitar wise that’s ever come from that band is straight from Jeff Hanneman.
Garth Hudson has to be one of the most imaginative and just plain unique instrumentalists in all of rock music. That weird, swirly organ sound with the pitch slipping and sliding all over is one of a kind. (I’d hate to have to transcribe any of his stuff.) To suggest that any other keyboardist could have done what he did is beyond comprehension.
Go Your Own Way has one of my very favorite rhythm tracks. If that’s incompetent drumming, then I wish all drumming could be that incompetent.
I felt like a shit about mentioning Garth Hudson earlier tonight – he clearly had a great gift, superior training, and could work the synths as well as the Hammond (and his sax). He just never grabbed me on the records, and the whole “genius of the keyboards” thing kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I never cared for that kind of label, even with someone as clearly definitional of a master cat as Jimmy Smith. He’s off the list, but so is Richard Manuel – I think he was a damned good piano player (and Hammond player, too).
I’d just seen “The Last Waltz” for the millionth time last night, so they came up as easy targets. I guess I’ll start playing “The Weight” for fun if I get stuck looking for a tune. But on “The Last Waltz,” Garth and Richard switched keys – Hudson on piano and Manuel on Hammond. I wonder if it was that way on the record.
I would think that the Beatles averted this fate with the first death.
But hey, points for dogging Ringo in the FIRST REPLY.
Really? 'cos I immediately think of Tom Scholz/Boston & Trent Reznor/Nine Inch Nails.
Maybe I’m just being thin-skinned on this particular issue, but I’m bowing out of this thread. Mostly because I’m tired of having to defend myself for having a goddamn opinion.
That was my point in originally naming him. Every time I’d hear a great Stones bass line, it would turn out to have been played by someone other than Bill Wyman. If it wasn’t Keith, it was someone from outside the band like Robbie Shakespeare. I’m not saying that Wyman NEVER played well, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of Charlie Watts or any of the Stones’ guitarists so consistently deferring to outside players.
If I’m wrong on this, please educate me.
Speaking as another bassist with the same level of experience, Mister Rik has ‘hit the note’ as Dwayne Allman would have put it. They didn’t need ‘flash’ for Bluesbreakers or early 'Mac, just tight, solid rhythm. Oh, by the way, Rick Danko is way under-appreciated; try singing those lyrics while playing his iconic (funky and loopy) bass lines at the same time. Not easy, guys - not easy.
It’s OK, Superdude. I went into the thread thinking Ringo would be mentioned, & it was the first reply.
Yes, Ringo is a goofy ridiculous person & musically meh beyond the drums. He was also a good pop drummer who was hired for his skills as a drummer. He’s sort of the inversion of the trope, except he was really the least of the four as a songwriter.
…but most important as the glue of the group…as mentioned upthread, that “intangible” can outweigh sheer musical talent by a huge amount…
Yes, foolsguinea, but Ringo was instrumental in helping create Beatlemania. A lot of fans liked his personality, especially in the movie A Hard Day’s Night. I’ve also read, possibly on this board, that he helped the Beatles stay together when things got rough since the other three respected him so much.
For whatever it’s worth, I’ve always felt that of the four Fabs as instrumentalists, Paul and Ringo were the standouts- a virtuoso bassist, and a gifted drummer who made it look easy.
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