# Who were the greatest race horses -- and how do they compare to one another? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 25, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934 "2003-07-25T18:44:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/1 "2003-07-25T18:44:52Z")
(Yeah, yeah, this thread is inspired by **Seabiscuit** – the book, not the movie, which I haven’t seen yet.) I’m pretty much a novice when it comes to the history of horse racing. Before reading Hillebrand’s book, I’d heard of Man o’ War, but I couldn’t have told you much about him. And I might’ve heard of Seabiscuit and War Admiral, but I didn’t remember them. So, experts, fill me in. Who are the all-time great racehorses? And, to really get into the IMHO of things, how would they stack up against each other? I know it wasn’t possible, for example, to race Seabiscuit against Man o’ War, but is there good evidence for one or the other being the better horse? And have better horses than Seabiscuit come along since? I sort of assume so, but I really have no idea. So. Top ten or so racehorses, in order of “greatness.” Go! ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/2 "2003-07-25T19:07:26Z")
I couldn’t rank them or speculate on how they would stack up against each other but each of these horses had a huge heart. Native Dancer. Secretariat. Phar Lap. Alydar . Citation. You just gotta love a Thoroughbred. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/3 "2003-07-25T19:23:56Z")
I think Secretariat won the Derby by 23 1/2 or some such ridiculous amount. He gets my bet. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/4 "2003-07-25T19:31:24Z")
Let me change that to the Belmont by 31 lengths to win the Triple Crown. The Derby and Preakness he won by 2 1/2. [Record](http://www.secretariat.com/past_performance.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/5 "2003-07-25T19:36:04Z")
Not that I’m a big fan, but I do manage to see the Triple Crown almost every year. For a single race, I can’t believe that any horse was ever as good as Secretariat in the Belmont. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/6 "2003-07-25T20:39:54Z")
Horses, especially good using horses, are sort of a thing with me. I can’t imagine that we will see a horse as good as Secretariat in our life times. Every thing you could ask for in a thoroughbred he had, and then some. At better horse than Man of War and his offspring? No question. All he lacked was Seabiscuit’s from rags to riches story. What a great horse. Of course, he was no Silky Sullivan. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/7 "2003-07-25T20:59:05Z")
**Spavined Gelding** : > [@](#): > > Horses, especially good using horses, are sort of a thing with me. Me too! I realize that he wasn’t a race horse but are you familiar with the story of Snowman ? It’s one of my very favorites. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/8 "2003-07-25T21:24:19Z")
About three minutes after posting this thread, I said to myself, “Oh, I’ve heard of Secretariat!” So is there general agreement that he’s the best racehorse in modern racing, anyway? Seems like he’s the consensus pick. **Spavined Gelding** , if you could elaborate on why there’s “no question” that he was superior to Man o’ War and his kin, I’d appreciate it. Is it just a matter of speed, or is there more to it? ---
**Author:** ![Avarie537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/48db29/32.png) [@Avarie537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avarie537)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/9 "2003-07-25T21:43:22Z")
Now I, for one, like to remember Stymie as well. He raced for years longer than Man O’ War or Secretariat, and loved to run the long races in the slop as well. Man O’ War may have had 20 wins in 21 starts - great percentage (95%) - but how about racing until the age of seven? It’s all so relative. (And we’re not even gonna start on Quarter Horses, Pacers, Standardbreds, and endurance racers!)[This](http://members.fortunecity.com/spiletta42/stymie.html) is a good (but long) re-cap of Stymie’s racing history. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/10 "2003-07-26T00:49:10Z")
I’ve read that Ruffian was pretty good. Too bad how she died, though. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/11 "2003-07-26T01:02:59Z")
Secretariat still holds the Derby record. He was also the only horse to have won that race where every quarter mile he ran was faster than the one before it (he was a GREAT finisher). There are many who think he broke the Preakness record, but the timing was fouled up somehow. I loved Secretariat. That Belmont may have been the most exciting sporting event I ever saw. Most of the “Greatest Ever” articles I have ever run across name either Secretariat or Man O’War, not that I have exhaustively researched it. As I said, though, Big Red still holds the Derby record, so don’t tell me who would’ve won head to head. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/12 "2003-07-26T01:19:14Z")
I loved Secretariat too. What a beautiful and wonderous animal! That red coat gleamed! I saw the Belmont Stakes live and it remains my favorite moment in sports also. (Second favorite was the Olympic hockey game USA vs CCCP – _Do you believe in miracles?_) For a long time you could drive to Kentucky and see Secretariat when he was prancing around outside. I always thought that I would go – and didn’t. I saw the movie _Seabiscuit_ in 1949. 🙂 All I remember is that it had a grown up Shirley Temple in it and that I cried like crazy at the end. I was only six. Horse movies always made me cry. There was only one horse I have loved more than Secretariat. He was a quarter horse named Strawberry. But you had to have been there… ---
**Author:** ![Miabella](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@Miabella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miabella)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/13 "2003-07-26T02:11:12Z")
A few years ago, Blood Horse magazine ranked the [Top 100 Racehorses of the 20th Century](http://www.bloodhorse.com/tb_champions/top_100_list.html). Man O’War was #1 with Secretariat coming in second. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/14 "2003-07-26T02:32:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > **Secretariat still holds the Derby record. He was also the only horse to have won that race where every quarter mile he ran was faster than the one before it (he was a GREAT finisher).** I think this needs to be emphasized. Secretariat _continuously_ accelerated around the track! He got _faster_ as the race progressed…not slower as one would expect with exertion over time. It had to be one of the most stupendous athletic feats ever…truly remarkable. Unless we get seriously genetic engineered horses or horses allowed to race doped to their eyeballs I doubt this record will ever fall (I know…never say never but it is a helluva mark to shoot for). ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/15 "2003-07-26T02:50:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avarie537 \* > \*\*Now I, for one, like to remember Stymie as well. He raced for years longer than Man O’ War or Secretariat, and loved to run the long races in the slop as well. Man O’ War may have had 20 wins in 21 starts - great percentage (95%) - but how about racing until the age of seven? \*\* And if there’s one legitimate complaint about modern racing protocol, this would be it. Nowdays there’s such an incredible amount of money involved that once a horse establises a remarkable pedigree it’s immediately put out to stud. Go to the Secretariat link above. It shows “Year two results”, then “year three results”, then no mas. He’d established such a remarkable record he was too valuable to ever race again. This is the one nice thing about the recent Derby and Preakness winner. He’s a gelding. They’ll race him till he’s done his best and then retire him out of respect. **Bob Cos** provided a link that names Man O’ War as number one overall. I’m not about to argue with that but had Secretariat been allowed to run for as long as he was capable the ranking would without a doubt be called into question. Fine horses both and I really like **Whack-a-Mole** ’s inclusion of him as one of the finest athaletes ever, not just one of the finest horses. It’s a notable distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/16 "2003-07-26T03:09:40Z")
The list begins and ends with Secretariat. The horse still holds the Derby and the Belmont record and it’s been 30 years. He wont he Belmont by 31 lengths. 31! When he was 3 years old, he entered 12 races and set new records in 6 of them. Going head to head in his prime, Secretariat whips all challengers. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/17 "2003-07-26T04:35:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Interrobang!? \* > \*\ ***Spavined Gelding** , if you could elaborate on why there’s “no question” that he was superior to Man o’ War and his kin, I’d appreciate it. Is it just a matter of speed, or is there more to it? \*\* Man of War last raced, I think, in 1918. He ran well into his maturity and may have still been running competitions after he began servicing mares. His off spring tended to have his characteristics–big strong, manageable horses with plenty of stamina and speed. He had a long life at stud and many get. Secretariat retired from racing after his remarkable Triple Crown wins as a three year old and went to stud. It is my recollection that he was not a successful breeder. Secretariat was a far faster, stronger horse than Man of War or any of his off spring and may have achieved wonders if he was not pulled from the track. We will never know. It is equally possible that the horse would have broken down in his next race and would have had to have been destroyed. It happens. It seems to me that Secretariat was the better horse, but that as a foundation stallion Man of War did more for the improvement of the breed. You can figure that for 20 or 30 years after Man of War left the track any horse with a naval reference in its name was a Man of War descendant–and some of them were very good, War Admiral for instance, and I think Count Fleet. At this point I suspect that almost any thoroughbred has some of Man of War’s genes floating around it its system someplace. But still to watch that red sorel horse pounding away, long smooth strides, big old head rocking up and down, hindquarter bunching and extending, accelerating under the jockey’s hand, no whip at all, just the urging of a hand gallop, and beating every thing in the field–that was something to see. Damn that was a horse. ---
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/18 "2003-07-26T04:59:38Z")
I’m just checking in after a long road trip, so I’ll be back to expound on this. But, the throughbred racehorses I consider the most brilliant (to the point of being freaks) are \*\*Man O War Secretariat Ruffian \*\* (duh 😉 ) **Citation** I’ll be back with supporting details. 🙂 I will say that in 2000, prominent American racing journalists created a book of the 100 greatest racehorses of the 20th century. Their top three, in order, were Man O War, Secretariat, and Citation. (Thanks for the thread heads-up, **Ringo**!) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/19 "2003-07-26T11:28:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*Secretariat retired from racing after his remarkable Triple Crown wins as a three year old and went to stud. It is my recollection that he was not a successful breeder. \*\*I have read the same, that his offspring did not approach the quality they had hoped for, though he certainly did produce some horses of some distinction. > [@](#): > > **Secretariat was a far faster, stronger horse than Man of War or any of his off spring and may have achieved wonders if he was not pulled from the track. We will never know. It is equally possible that the horse would have broken down in his next race and would have had to have been destroyed. It happens. It seems to me that Secretariat was the better horse, but that as a foundation stallion Man of War did more for the improvement of the breed.** I think you’re on to something here. Perhaps ranking does typically include the quality of the horse’s progeny. Because everything I’ve read (and the records that still stand) suggest that Secretariat in his best race would have crushed any other horse in its best, Man o’War included. Seems to me that decides it. BTW, somebody gave me credit for Miabella’s cite. And Zoe, when you say you saw the Belmont live, do you mean you were there?!!! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934/20 "2003-07-26T12:28:34Z")
One thing I loved about Secretariat is that he never looked like he was going fast. It was like he was just strolling along, la da da de dah. Never let them see him sweat. I love Funny Cide, and wish he’d won the Triple Crown. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-greatest-race-horses-and-how-do-they-compare-to-one-another/190934.md?page=2)