# Who were the original people of Britain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 9, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229 "2004-07-09T03:52:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/1 "2004-07-09T03:52:01Z")
Call me an idiot but I’m curious now. I saw King Arthur last night, a pretty good movie, and it was about the Roman Britons fighting off the Saxon invaders. They were helped by people called Walts or something, didn’t catch the spelling, who lived in the woods and painted themselves blue. They were referred to, I think, as “British rebels.” What was the original makeup of the British Isles prior to the Saxon invasions? I’m tempted to say the ‘Celts’ but I don’t think it’s all one people. I’ve heard of others like the Picts that became the Scotsman and the Druids (I don’t know anything about them.) Also the ‘Cornish’ (don’t know anything about them. Were all these groups seperate people or were they descended from common stock? And where did that common stock come from? And were the Irish a seperate people from the rest of the British prior to the Saxon invasions? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/2 "2004-07-09T04:14:15Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > And were the Irish a seperate people from the rest of the British prior to the Saxon invasions? IIRC, the Irish were pretty much a seperate people for centuries after the Romans bugged out of England. Even when they _were_ officially conquered, they remained a fiercely troublesome lot. (No insult meant to the Irish, BTW. I have the strange fortune of being of Irish descent with the surname of “Drake” [Sir Francis Drake was sent to quell a rebellion in Ireland at one point in his career. He, like everyone else, didn’t have much luck.], all I need to do is marry someone of Spanish descent, and the cycle of utter weirdness will be complete. At which point, if I’m lucky, the entire universe will implode.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/3 "2004-07-09T04:43:51Z")
Before the Saxons and the Romans, most of Britain was occupied by Celtic tribes and Celtic culture. The druids were the priestly class of the Celts. Before the Celts, there were the Picts in Scotland, and some group we don’t know much about in England, except they built Stonehenge and other standing stone monuments. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/4 "2004-07-09T04:50:47Z")
So the Celts were the ancient Irish as well? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/5 "2004-07-09T05:14:17Z")
The Celts were like the Slavs or the Germanic people – a bunch of different related groups speaking related languages, but a “genus” rather than a “species” (if you’ll pardon the misnomer) in terms of classifying cultural groups. Most of the known pre-Roman peoples of the British Isles were Celts. They fell into certain groups, referenced mostly by language, and then into tribes within those groups. The Picts appear to have been a non-Celtic group that occupied eastern Scotland up until well into medieval times. There is also thought to have been a group that preceded the Celts in England but of which very little is known – two words, one giving rise to “apple” and the other \*_ondo_ meaning stone (whence Tolkien, a scholar of philology, named Gondor and Gondolin in his stories). Of the Celts, the apparent major breakdown was between the Continental Celts – the Gauls whom Caesar fought in France, the Belgae, the pre-Roman Celts of Spain, the La Tene culture, the Galicians who invaded Asia Minor, etc. – and the Insular Celts. For all practical purposes, the Continental Celts are now extinct, linguistically and largely culturally. The Insular Celts, which inhabited the British Isles, are broken down into the Brythonic Celts and the Goiledic Celts. The Brythonic group occupied England, southern Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall; the Goiledic group, Ireland. But the Anglo-Saxon invasion drove out or overran the Celts of England and, later, the Brythonic Celts of Scotland; some refugees crossed over to the Armorica Peninsula of France and founded Brittany, where they are still present. The Goiledic Dal Riada people of Ulster, called the Scots, crossed over to Galloway in southwest Scotland, and expanded from there across much of Scotland, giving rise to Scots Gaelic. A good map of Roman Britain will give the names of the major tribes and the areas they occupied. That, in a nutshell, is what is known of pre-Roman Britain and its peoples. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/6 "2004-07-09T05:16:15Z")
The Celts lived in much of Western Europe at one point, including what is now France, northern Spain and the whole of the British Isles. Later invaders drove them into the remote and mountainous areas such as Brittany, Cornwall, Wales, Ireland and Scotland. There are claims for Celtic culture in places as far apart as Turkey and Iceland, but I don’t know how reliable they are. ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/7 "2004-07-09T10:07:20Z")
It is also worth noting that the celts were _not_ the first people to settle the British Isles. It is believed that they were preceded by what is today called the _beaker people_, who probably were responsible for things like Stonehenge. Remains have also been found that predate the arrival of the beaker people, but as far as I know they haven’t been conclusively identified. There’s a nice article in the [url=“[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient\_Britain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Britain)”[wikipedia that might serve as a starting point if you want to find out more. ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/8 "2004-07-09T10:09:44Z")
that should read: There’s a nice article in the [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Britain) that might serve as a starting point if you want to find out more. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/9 "2004-07-09T11:15:00Z")
> [@AndrewT](#): > > There are claims for Celtic culture in places as far apart as Turkey and Iceland, but I don’t know how reliable they are. I would have strong doubts about Ireland, but concerning Turkey, that’s true. The Galates who lived there were Celts who invaded first the Danube valley and then Asia minor to eventually settle in what is now Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/10 "2004-07-09T11:16:15Z")
I meant strong doubts about _Iceland_, not Ireland, of course… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/11 "2004-07-09T13:31:57Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > But the Anglo-Saxon invasion drove out or overran the Celts of England and, later, the Brythonic Celts of Scotland; some refugees crossed over to the Armorica Peninsula of France and founded Brittany… Very much a sore point: scholars now accept that u=infact there was no great running away of the celts west and south, that wales always was just what it is today, that two battles in the NW of england and SW just near cornwall cut it off from the old north (strathclyde) and Kernevek but that the people were assimilated into an Anglo-saxon way of life rather than being massacred and fucking off. Recent genetic tests have shown that the welsh have far more in common with the present inhabitants of the SE of england than with the NE, so Vikings killed and scared all off, but the English just had better barbecues! By the way Brittany in Welsh is LLYDAW meaning half-mute. the story goes that the Welsh/Cornish arriving found a very poofy gallo-roman society and so killed all the men, raped all the woman as you do, and cut out their tongues so that the kids would only hear the celtic language! hence half-mute tasty story but not really “interceltic friendship 101” ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/12 "2004-07-10T07:30:16Z")
> [@AndrewT](#): > > Later invaders drove them into the remote and mountainous areas such as Brittany. We spent a week in Brittany a couple of years ago. Can’t say that it was very mountainous, but they do have ties to England. In fact as the OP started out talking about King Arthur, I’ll add that Brittany also lays claim to him. We visited what was supposed to be what is left of the forest where he lived. > [@](#): > > [**French Connections**](http://www.frenchconnections.co.uk/regions/brittanyguide.html) You can walk through the magical forest of Broceliande, home of Merlin, where King Arthur and his Knights came on their search for the Holy Grail. Or visit the forest of Huelgoat with its mysterious giant rocks, its grottos and streams and its tales of giants and goblins. Other legends include the story of Tristram and Iseult (Tristan and Isolde) which inspired Wagner’s opera. Huelgoat is where we visited and entering the forest there is different than anything I’ve ever experienced. It made you a believer (at least while you were there.) Also the Britons are trying to preserve their ancient language, which is related to the Celtic language. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/13 "2004-07-10T08:23:26Z")
> [@](#): > > It is believed that they were preceded by what is today called the beaker people, who probably were responsible for things like Stonehenge. Remains have also been found that predate the arrival of the beaker people, but as far as I know they haven’t been conclusively identified. Why the hell are they called beaker people? Were they scientists? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/14 "2004-07-10T10:11:01Z")
> [@Ponster](#): > > By the way Brittany in Welsh is LLYDAW meaning half-mute. the story goes that > the Welsh/Cornish arriving found a very poofy gallo-roman society and so killed > all the men, raped all the woman as you do, and cut out their tongues so that > the kids would only hear the celtic language! hence half-mute > tasty story but not really “interceltic friendship 101” Interesting, because one of my prefered (comic??? not sure it’s the correct word) set up in the legendary times of early Britanny, which included this story (the main character belonging to this people which had their tongue cut out) and while I was familiar with the others folk tales refered to, I had no clue this too was an actual legen, rather than made up by the author. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/15 "2004-07-10T10:16:14Z")
> [@kniz](#): > > Also the Britons are trying to preserve their ancient language, which is related to the Celtic language. Actually, it is A Celtic language. Related to Welsh, as already mentionned. And Broceliande has definitely something magical to it… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/16 "2004-07-10T14:27:14Z")
**Ponster** – interesting stuff, and thanks for the expanded material. I very carefully did not suggest the “retreat into Wales” bit, which I’m aware is mostly discredited – just that the Celtic peoples of England “proper” (omitting Cornwall, Cumbria, etc.) were conquered and mostly subsumed by the Anglo-Saxons. Brittany, for which there **is** some historical grounds for the “escape” bit, would be the exception to that. It’s interesting, and fairly surprising, to look at a map of the British Isles at about 800 AD to see what remained Celtic-dominated and what was ASJ-dominated. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/17 "2004-07-10T14:30:00Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Why the hell are they called beaker people? Were they scientists? If you were being serious here is your answer :- [http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0003087.html](http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0003087.html) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/18 "2004-07-10T18:52:32Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Why the hell are they called beaker people? Were they scientists? [The Beaker People](http://www.palisadestoys.com/new/MUPPETS_SITE/PLAYSETS/LABPHOTO2.jpg) sorry ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/19 "2004-07-10T19:02:13Z")
Well no wonder they faded away, **vl\_mungo**. Between the odd experiments they did on each other and the inability to understand each others’ mumblings they were ripe for the conquering. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229/20 "2004-07-10T19:42:38Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The Goiledic Dal Riada people of Ulster, called the Scots, crossed over to Galloway in southwest Scotland, and expanded from there across much of Scotland, giving rise to Scots Gaelic. Not knowing a great deal about such things is it too much of a leap of the imagination on my behalf to ask whether this is why people in Northern Ireland have an accent that’s a mix of Irish and Scottish. Or is that to do with later colonisation efforts? 😕 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-original-people-of-britain/254229.md?page=2)