# Who were the proto-geeks? What did geeks do before electronics? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 11, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125 "2004-11-11T01:43:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/21 "2004-11-11T05:16:34Z")
Making silhouette portraits is definitely a proto-geek activity. Charades is probably up there too. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/22 "2004-11-11T05:58:01Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > Why don’t you define what the term “geek” means without making any reference to electronics or any other sort of technology? You seem to know what “geek” means in terms of somebody’s involvement with electronics or technology, but what does the word mean if it’s not tied to these things. Otherwise, all we can do is just come up with vague analogies. Geek (in this context) = Someone with a strong technical bent, who is inclined toward experimentation and tinkering. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/23 "2004-11-11T06:18:40Z")
> [@Pullet](#): > > IIRC, electricity was initially considered a novelty. My understading was that Edison was remarkable for actually doing something with the stuff instead of just zapping people (sorry, can’t find a source). At one point it was a novelty and a rather mysterious one to the average man. But that was in the early 19th century and earlier eras. By the time Edison came along, they’d already been using it in telecommunications (the telegraph) and to make hydrogen gas (by electrolyzing water). ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/24 "2004-11-11T08:34:12Z")
collecting comes to mind stamps coins butterflies fossils were all popular in Victorian times. Alot of people would have put their geekish energies into societies, art, music. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/25 "2004-11-11T08:55:59Z")
I’ll echo stamp, coins and butterfly. Add a chemistry set, a toy steam engine, Lego and above all else: [Meccano](http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/meccano/). ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/26 "2004-11-11T13:51:02Z")
astro writes: \> Geek (in this context) = Someone with a strong technical bent, who is inclined \> toward experimentation and tinkering. But one of the questions you asked was: \> Before the industrial revolution? Before the industrial revolution, what sort of technical things were there which one could experiment or tinker with? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/27 "2004-11-11T14:07:33Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > Before the industrial revolution, what sort of technical things were there which one could experiment or tinker with? People have already mentioned lots: spear tips (I’ll add slings, knife points, arrowheads, beads, clothing - basically anything knapped or sewn), plows (and rakes and shovels and hoes and cisterns and wells and other farm-related implements), leather and metal armor (and swords and flails and axes and gunpowder and other weaponry, including the historic [double headed 18" ice blue jelly dong](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=266235&highlight=blue+jelly), of course!), medicine, law, philosophy (tell me Plato wasn’t a geek. c’mon, just try!) I think a more useful definition of geek in our sense might be something along the lines of: “A person who is so dedicated to the pursuit of one area of esoteric knowledge, often scientifically or technologically based, as to threaten or stunt his or her personal growth and social development.” In which case, there would have been no industrial revolution without geeks. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/28 "2004-11-11T14:36:38Z")
In James Michner’s book _The Source_ he tells of a character, Ur, who is disappointed that one of his sons doesn’t want to go out and hunt with the men as his other son does. IIRC the son wins grudging approval from his father for making a proto-business of knapping flint spear points and knives. It sounds like a _Far Side_ cartoon but makes the good point that no one could be a specialist without a developed society to support their efforts. The average caveman would have had to be a jack of all trades, giving him exposure to more experiences and people. The specialist probably spent more time on one task, possibly at the expense of social skills. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/29 "2004-11-11T14:37:47Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > astro writes: > > \> Geek (in this context) = Someone with a strong technical bent, who is inclined > \> toward experimentation and tinkering. > > But one of the questions you asked was: > > \> Before the industrial revolution? > > Before the industrial revolution, what sort of technical things were there which one could experiment or tinker with? Well… that was sort of my question. where would those geekish energies be directed in times past. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/30 "2004-11-11T14:49:23Z")
> [@Antigen](#): > > How about those stone-age poeple who developed spear points? That’s pretty geeky, to play around with rocks to get a workable sharp tool while your buddies are throwing pointy sticks at mammoths. > Ugg: “Hey, check out my new spear point!” > > Ogg: “My gosh, is that bifacial?” > > Ugg: “Yeah, it’s the latest model. Flies real smooth.” > > Assembly of cavemen geeks: “ooooohhhh” Well, maybe, but most people back then would have known how to make a spear point (though some might have been better than others). The real geek profession would have been shaman, medicine man, or astrologer. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/31 "2004-11-11T16:39:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Well, maybe, but most people back then would have known how to make a spear point (though some might have been better than others). The real geek profession would have been shaman, medicine man, or astrologer. I disagree based on the definition of geek we’re using. Those professions you mentioned are positions of authority and respect in a society much the same as doctors and clergy are now. They aren’t the guys who hang around the neolithic version of Radio Shack. Geeks may have attained some status now but it’s a very recent development. There have been electronics geeks since Marconi made the wireless but not Microsoft Millionaires. I’ll have to reread _The Source_ as it’s been several years, I might be remembering something else, but I recall the father being concerned that his flint knapping son wasn’t developing the skills to find a mate and survive in the world. I think it’s a perfect metaphor for a 33 year old Star Trek geek living in his parent’s basement. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/32 "2004-11-11T17:03:44Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Geeks - You know them. They live among you. > > Who and what were they before the age of electronics? What did geeks do to occupy their technical leanings before the tube and transistor? Before the industrial revolution? Were there even any “geeks” in that far away time. What the heck would a American Colonial era or Renaissance era geek do to occupy themselves? Leyden jars, kites, and frog legs? ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/33 "2004-11-11T17:12:36Z")
I susspect many might have joined monasteries. Seriously, geeks are into the world of the mind more than the world of the physical, it would be the only opportunity in the middle ages to learn to read for lower class people. Studying religious texts can be a very geeky persuit. There is also the chemistry of brewing that was popular in such places. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/34 "2004-11-11T17:43:03Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > I disagree based on the definition of geek we’re using. What definition of geek are “we” using? Shaman is the kind of profession that an intellectual oddball/social misfit would have gravitated to. I don’t think it matters that by doing so he would then gain power and social standing. After all, Bill Gates is certainly a still a geek, regardless of the amount of authority and power he has. I would also agree with **Bippy’s** suggestion about monks - just the sort of profession for an intelligent misfit. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/35 "2004-11-11T18:29:30Z")
I’m reading Neal Stephen’s [_Quicksilver_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060593083/qid=1100198015/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-0431449-9877661?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) and it is basically about the European geeks of the late 17th century (The Royal Society and friends). In this book they are working with and disproving alchemy, inventing calculus, putting together a solid banking/money system, expanding the stock exchange and in their spare time “tinkering” with gunpowder and cannons, unknowingly inventing calculators, falling into pits of phosphorous and improving on each other’s ideas of how a pocket watch and clock should work. I highly recommend it. It’s a very SDMB geekly read for men and women alike (one of the main protagonists is a woman with a knack for being a fine stock broker) ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/36 "2004-11-11T19:47:49Z")
Well, during the Renaissance and into the Age of Reason, laypeople certianly tinkered with science as a hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/37 "2004-11-11T20:34:28Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > With best speculation, all these men died at the same time since they were unable to reproduce - they were all found alone in or around caves roughly 30km from each other. I thought they were all in the back of their parents’ caves. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/38 "2004-11-11T20:47:29Z")
I’ll agree with **Bippy**. Gregor Mendel discovered some of the basics of genetics by fooling around with pea plants in the monastery gardens. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/39 "2004-11-11T21:32:07Z")
> [@Antigen](#): > > How about those stone-age poeple who developed spear points? That’s pretty geeky, to play around with rocks to get a workable sharp tool while your buddies are throwing pointy sticks at mammoths. > Ugg: “Hey, check out my new spear point!” > > Ogg: “My gosh, is that bifacial?” > > Ugg: “Yeah, it’s the latest model. Flies real smooth.” > > Assembly of cavemen geeks: “ooooohhhh” This reminds me of a great Gary Larson cartoon in a similar vein. We see a group of guys sitting around the fire, and burning themselves because they hold their food in the fire for cooking with their bare hands. Someone points and says, “Oooh…Look what Thag do”…and in the background is Thag sitting at his own fire holding his mastodon meat with a startling new invention…a stick! Thag is wearing glasses, of course. ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125/40 "2004-11-11T23:03:34Z")
Waterwheel effects: there was a little dam across the creek near our house when we were kids–little meaning about 30" high. My brothers, possibly instigated by my father, made a small waterwheel, and made a string loop that led off to other wheel(s), and tied in some objects that cycled around striking wood and metal bits so as to make bings, clicks, tocks, etc. After that, visitors to the house would all come to a stop and study it for a while, before coming on to the door. Betcha miners fooled around with methods of smelting ore, chemical extractions possibly, crushers, concentrators, etc. And hoists, tracks, ore cars, tunneling, ventilation, ceiling props, and so on. Remember we got copper long ago, and iron, tin, and other metals. And glass began with the Egyptians. Somebody had to design kilns and improve on them. Clockworks. And you know musicians. No sooner than they invent the lute or the flute, they fool around with it. Phony prophesying talking heads for temples. Read “The Ancient Engineers”, by L. Sprague de Camp (cool guy). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-the-proto-geeks-what-did-geeks-do-before-electronics/274125.md?page=3)