# Who will be U.S. president first? A woman or a "minority"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759 "2004-08-20T18:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/41 "2004-08-21T17:57:47Z")
> [@Master Control](#): > > So, are you saying that even though his skin is black, he doesn’t look and act like a “black man”? For that he’d need to be more…urban I guess would be the word? “I’m Colon Powel bitch!” First off, his skin is not black. It’s not even brown! [This](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040729/photos_wl_afp/040729174907_ywxnq9ch_photo1) is what Colin Powell looks like. When most Americans think “black guy”, Colin Powell’s picture is not what comes to mind. Secondly, I didn’t say anything about “acting” black. Please don’t put words like that in my mouth. And sorry, but the Rick James stuff is old. I can’t laugh at it anymore. I’m from Atlanta, a city that has been successful in electing black mayors through the years. This is something to be proud about. But it should be said that every single black mayor it’s elected has passed the brown bag test with flying colors. The power of light skin should not be downplayed at all. > [@](#): > > even liberal Republicans Example? > [@](#): > > But nobody wanted Leiberman because they said he just Bush-Lite. Leiberman is bland and talks like he’s constipated. But people wanted him. He and Gore got a hell of a lot of votes. > [@](#): > > Saying his blackness is what cost him is oversimplifying things. Good thing I didn’t say this. > [@](#): > > Putting race aside… You’re oversimplifying things if you think race can be put aside. > [@](#): > > Uhm, for one thing, Powel never ran, so people who said they’d vote for him, and then actually voted for someone else aren’t liars or racists. Say what? 😕 > [@](#): > > Also, again, you seem to be oversimplifying things by contributing racism to people not voting for the minority candidate. Someone might say they’d vote for Al Sharpton, but know that, in reality, he doesn’t have a snow balls chance in hell of winning, thus, they’ll vote for a candidate who actually stands a chance, because they don’t want to throw their vote away. Does this make those voters disengenuos and liars, absolutely. Does it make them racist? Some probably are, and some probably aren’t. Go back and read my post. Where do I mention the word “racism”? My thinking is this (and I’m stating everything explicitly so you can’t distort my argument): a person may feel that it’s chic to put their support behind the popular black candidate. I have never heard anyone say they wouldn’t vote for Colin Powell. He seems to be everyone’s dream boat. Probably many people feel genuinely interested in Powell as a candidate, and feel that he has a lot to offer. I think a great deal of others, however, say they will vote for him only because they feel it’s the PC thing to do. They may disagree with his performance as SS. They may feel he’s too conservative or too moderate. But they may also feel that their outward disapproval of him will be misconstrued as racism–a taboo in our society. Or they may very well be racist. And they may decide to go with their gut feelings when they’re all by themselves in the voting booth. Got it? ---
**Author:** ![Gamaliel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b487fb/32.png) [@Gamaliel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gamaliel)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/42 "2004-08-21T18:02:19Z")
I thought we already had [a gay president](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Buchanan). ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/43 "2004-08-21T19:04:05Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > First off, his skin is not black. It’s not even brown! [This](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040729/photos_wl_afp/040729174907_ywxnq9ch_photo1) is what Colin Powell looks like. When most Americans think “black guy”, Colin Powell’s picture is not what comes to mind. Looks brown to me. > [@Monstro](#): > > Secondly, I didn’t say anything about “acting” black. Please don’t put words like that in my mouth. Sorry, my mistake. I thought that you might mean how he acts as opposed to how he looks because, to me, he does look black. A light skinned black, yes, but black none the less. I didn’t understand that you don’t see him as physically looking black. > [@Monstro](#): > > I’m from Atlanta, a city that has been successful in electing black mayors through the years. This is something to be proud about. But it should be said that every single black mayor it’s elected has passed the brown bag test with flying colors. The power of light skin should not be downplayed at all. I’ll have to google “brown bag test”, I’m unfamiliar with that term. > [@Master Control](#): > > even liberal Republicans > [@Monstro](#): > > Example? I’ll give you a couple. Michael Bloomberg and George Pataki. > [@Monstro](#): > > Leiberman is bland and talks like he’s constipated. But people wanted him. He and Gore got a hell of a lot of votes. The Gore/Leiberman ticket did get a lot of votes, but without Gore, Leiberman didn’t have a chance. > [@Master Control](#): > > Saying his blackness is what cost him is oversimplifying things. > [@Monstro](#): > > Good thing I didn’t say this. You said: > [@Monstro](#): > > Jesse Jackson had a lot of support from his party when he threw in his hat back in the 80s, but even if everything else was likable about the guy (and back then, he wasn’t nearly as controversial as he is now), his Civil Rights history made him unpalatable. Rainbow Coalition? You mean red, white, and blue ain’t enough? No, he was **too black** and too scary. Bolding mine. I guess I misunderstood that part. Please explain what you ment by that. > [@Monstro](#): > > You’re oversimplifying things if you think race can be put aside. This **sounds** , and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you’re of the opinion that a lot of white Americans are, to some degree, racists. And any way, all I ment was, even if he was white, he still wouldn’t have been elected. > [@Master Control](#): > > Uhm, for one thing, Powel never ran, so people who said they’d vote for him, and then actually voted for someone else aren’t liars or racists. > [@Monstro](#): > > Say what? 😕 When you said > [@Monstro](#): > > I know people say they’d vote for Colin easily, but I once read a stunning article (cannot locate it on google, dammit) that basically exposed a disconnect between who voters said they were voting for and who they actually voted for. People will throw their support behind a black candidate because it’s the PC thing to do, but when it’s votin’ time, they change their minds. I think the same would happen if Colin ran (which he will never do). You make it sound like the people who said that they’d vote for Powel, were liars. I’m saying that since he didn’t run, you don’t know that. > [@Monstro](#): > > Go back and read my post. Where do I mention the word “racism”? No, you don’t use the word, it just seems implied. OK, maybe that’s strong, but I get the feeling from reading your posts, that you feel that a lot white Americans, especially Repubicans and conservatives have something against voting for a black president. It just kind of puts me on the defensive, the same way that I’m sure certain stereotypes generalizations about blacks rub you the wrong way. I’m a white, conservative Republican, and it bothers me when people make comments about us either not wanting a black president, or only wanting one we can control. I know you didn’t say that all of us are like that, and I was probably too defensive. My apologies. > [@Monstro](#): > > My thinking is this (and I’m stating everything explicitly so you can’t distort my argument): Ouch, that hurt. I’m sorry that you feel like I’m distorting your arguments. I’m just going by what you say, or what seem to be implying. I’m sorry if I distorted any of your arguments. That wasn’t my intent. > [@](#): > > a person may feel that it’s chic to put their support behind the popular black candidate. I have never heard anyone say they wouldn’t vote for Colin Powell. He seems to be everyone’s dream boat. Probably many people feel genuinely interested in Powell as a candidate, and feel that he has a lot to offer. I think a great deal of others, however, say they will vote for him only because they feel it’s the PC thing to do. They may disagree with his performance as SS. They may feel he’s too conservative or too moderate. But they may also feel that their outward disapproval of him will be misconstrued as racism–a taboo in our society. > > Or they may very well be racist. > > And they may decide to go with their gut feelings when they’re all by themselves in the voting booth. > > Got it? Although it’s sometimes hard to tell how a person’s feeling, from reading their posts, I have a very strong feeling that I pissed you off. My aplogies. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/44 "2004-08-21T19:52:12Z")
> [@Rusalka](#): > > If an individual falls into both categories, well then I guess that would be a tie; but barring that scenario, which event do you think would happen first?. Morgan Freeman , in 08 Declan ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/45 "2004-08-21T20:12:32Z")
Like **Gamaliel** , my money’s on Barack Obama. Between Obama, John Edwards, and Hillary Clinton, the post-Kerry Dem field is already getting crowded, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/46 "2004-08-21T22:13:36Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > May the good Lord protect us. From you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/47 "2004-08-22T01:32:00Z")
Moving this hot potato from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/48 "2004-08-22T02:27:49Z")
If being a minority has to do with being under-represented, then Michael Moore must be the largest majority in America. Well, in California, New York and Washington, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/49 "2004-08-22T02:30:27Z")
Is there a word for a one-liner that isn’t funny? Not to bust up a great joke, but Michael Moore != spokesman for all liberals, just as entire population of Cali, NY and DC (not Massachusetts?) != liberals, or did you notice that both states have Republican governors? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/50 "2004-08-22T02:31:39Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Morgan Freeman , in 08 > > Declan Mike Tyson in '16 ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/51 "2004-08-22T02:34:46Z")
> [@Master Control](#): > > Although it’s sometimes hard to tell how a person’s feeling, from reading their posts, I have a very strong feeling that I pissed you off. My aplogies. You kinda did, but it’s alright. All’s forgiven 🙂 > [@](#): > > I’ll have to google “brown bag test”, I’m unfamiliar with that term. The “paper bag test” refers to something done back in the day by black institutions to winnow out the light-skinned blacks (good) from the dark-skinned ones (bad). If your skin was as light or lighter than a brown paper bag, you were in the “club”–you could attend Spelman, attend a bougie church, belong to an elite civic organization (like the Links), marry the hot shot doctor, etc. A good [article](http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=paper+bag+test&ei=UTF-8&n=20&fl=0&u=www.sptimes.com/2003/08/31/Columns/The_paper_bag_test.shtml&w=paper+bag+test&d=0EBAA1722A&icp=1). ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/52 "2004-08-22T03:10:13Z")
… this is Great Debates. Posts should have at least a minimal acquaintance with reality. We’re not going to have a black president in the US, ever. Remember when Jackson ran for president in '84, people came out of the woodwork with assassination plots, caches of weapons and itineraries. If I recall correctly, he had more death threats made against him than the all the other Democratic candidates combined. And the assassination plots were probably limited by the fact that Jackson had no real chance of winning the nomination. Recall too that when Tom Bradley, successful several term mayor of Los Angeles ran for governor of California, white people polled said they were going to vote for him, but changed their minds once they were in the voting booth. According to the polls Bradley was going to win, but white Californians preferred a no name Republican with no real track record. Recall also the good cheer and salutations that erupted among many white Americans when news of MLK’s assassination came down. King was never a presidential candidate, but he was a leader of a mass movement with national and international impact, and huge numbers of white Americans were thrilled to see him go. We could have a white female president very soon, though not Hilary - too much baggage. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/53 "2004-08-23T00:05:00Z")
Very recently I thought that a white woman prez would manifest way before a minority, but after getting a taste of Obama, I think he would have a great chance if he were to run 8 years from now. Unfortunately, I can’t imagine when we’ll ever have a minority woman president. Especially a black woman. People are so used to seeing leadership in the form of middle-aged white male, that something as different from that form as a black woman would be hard for the public to swallow. I think what is often forgotten is that a lot of people (like Midwesterners), interact very little with racial and ethnic minorities, so these voters will be hesistant to vote for the “other”. For instance, a black man can’t just put on a cowboy hat, a pair of Levis, and an exaggerated drawl and then connect with Texan ranchers as easily as a white dude can. At least a white woman is generally more familiar and won’t have to overcome that you-ain’t-like-folks-'round-here prejudice that would probably affect brown- hued people. I think that one is harder to fight than the “she’s a bitch if she’s strong, she’s a wimp if she’s feminine” double-edged sword that women face. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/54 "2004-08-23T03:54:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > … If your skin was as light or lighter than a brown paper bag, you were in the “club”–you could attend Spelman… I’m curious about this statement. Do you have any cites which provide support for Spelman discriminating on the basis of skin color within the Black community? And does the same accusation also apply to Morehouse? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/55 "2004-08-23T04:22:49Z")
One of the most important areas in which mulattoes received superior treatment to darker-skinned Blacks was in education. Mulattoes formed preparatory schools and colleges that denied access to persons who were too dark.128 Many historically Black colleges and universities established in the nineteenth century also discriminated on the basis of color in their admissions process.129 Not only were educational institutions segregated by color, but their curricula differed as well. In schools attended by mulattoes, students received a liberal arts education. By contrast, darker-skinned Blacks were taught in schools and programs that focused primarily on vocational learning.130 This focus on training in practical skills reinforced the placement of darker-skinned Blacks into lower-paying, less-skilled positions. [http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/dlj/articles/dlj49p1487.htm](http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/dlj/articles/dlj49p1487.htm) Trina Jones, _Shades of Brown: The Law of Skin Color_ ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/56 "2004-08-23T04:37:17Z")
Thanks, **Belowjob2.0** ; that article does indeed reference another source which mentions admission policies at Spelman discriminating against darker-skinned Blacks. As a total side issue (and it doesn’t have to be addressed in this thread), now I wonder when that practice changed and, to some degree–among the students, at least–reversed. My wife was a student at Spelman in the late '80s and early '90s, and she was criticized for not being “Black enough” in skin color. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/57 "2004-08-23T07:25:50Z")
Unless Hillary makes it (which I doubt), I’m guessing that the person will go thru the VP slot first before being elected president. And since there are many, many more minority males in government than white females, I think it’ll be a minority male: Black if Republican, while a Hispanic could probably be from either party. A Black republican would gain lots of votes from democrats, but I think a Black democrat would have a real tough time persuading republicans to vote for him/her (especially her). I fully concur with \*\*Monstro \*\* on the paper bag test. It’s sad, but true that a light skinned Black still has a big leg up on a dark skinned Black in this country. ---
**Author:** ![grand\_poobah\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e36b37/32.png) [@grand\_poobah\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grand_poobah_bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/58 "2004-08-23T13:46:11Z")
I think Hilary has a great chance _if_ she can run. Her best chances I think would be if Kerry lost. Else, it is likely that Kerry will be around for 2 terms, then comes Edwards. So Edwards could win or lose. So that makes it 12 years at least for Hilary. Long time I think. Maybe Obama will be her running mate. Personally I would loved to have seen a Dean / Mosley Braun. Probably the smartest POTUS/VPOTUS combo. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759/59 "2004-08-24T00:09:42Z")
Dang, I’m going to have to Google Obama. Everyone here is singing his praises, yet, I don’t think I’ve hever heard of the guy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-will-be-u-s-president-first-a-woman-or-a-minority/260759.md?page=2)