# Who would win? Supercarrier vs Superdestroyer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400 "2014-07-05T12:11:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/21 "2014-07-06T00:12:23Z")
The carrier’s fighter wing would likely simply exhaust the destroyer’s anti-missile defenses over a prolonged period of time by running the destroyer out of its Aster missiles. In addition, the carrier, being nuclear-powered, could harass the conventionally-powered destroyer to the point of fuel depletion by continuously preventing the destroyer from refueling or docking in port. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/22 "2014-07-06T00:18:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I doubt Dauntless even has enough missiles to shoot down Bush’s complement of airplanes. According to every source I can find, Dauntless carries a full load of \*\*48 SAMs (which is a great many, actually.) \*\* I believe USS George H.W. Bush carries more combat aircraft than that. That actually seems like a really small load for an air defense destroyer; don’t most Aegis warships, for instance, carry between 80-120 Standard SM-2/SM-3 missiles? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/23 "2014-07-06T00:57:16Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > The sources say that there is a 48 strong launcher cell - any idea if that is the total onboard? Can it be reloaded from onboard stores? Not that that’ll make that much difference to the outcome 48 is the total on board, not having to reload the launcher from the magazine was the point of switching over to vertical launch cells on ships. The Type 45 destroyer is supposed to have space for the number of cells to be increased to either 64 or 72 in the [future though](http://navy-matters.beedall.com/daring1-2.htm): > [@](#): > > The Type 45s are base-lined with a 48-cell SYLVER A50 VLS (manufactured by DCN Engineering at Ruelle in France) as an integral part of the Principal Anti-Air Missile System (PAAMS). Initially the Aster missiles will be carried in DCN Sylver vertical launch cells, however sufficient weight and space is provided for the substitution of the more flexible Lockheed-Martin Mark 41 VLS launcher in the future. Space is also provided to increase the number of vertical launch cells from 48 to 64 if required (some reports indicated up to 72). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/24 "2014-07-06T01:50:58Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I wonder if that point was addressed in the OP at all? It was, but it’s pointless. It’s like asking: Who would win in a fight absent their superpowers, Superhero A or Superhero B? ---
**Author:** ![jcheung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@jcheung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcheung)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/25 "2014-07-06T03:54:19Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Well, first of all the [USS Trippe (DD-33)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Trippe_%28DD-33%29) was scrapped in 1934. I know that the USN had a dodge to get around Congressional funding questions where they built a new ship while pretending to “greatly improve” the old one, but that’s a hell of an improvement! > > ETA: And none of that can be used to sink a carrier. whoops, i do believe i mistyped, i meant to say D-33 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/26 "2014-07-06T04:44:05Z")
> [@](#): > > starting distance of 4000 KM Right there you doomed any small chance the destroyer has. If you change that to 4000 meters and then start things off the destroyer would at least have a chance, otherwise no way. Essentially, the destroyer will never find the carrier until the carrier finds it first…and that will be all she wrote. The only variable will be how long can the destroyer fend off the missile and air attacks before it goes down in a fiery blaze of glory. ---
**Author:** ![jcheung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@jcheung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcheung)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/27 "2014-07-06T05:04:41Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Right there you doomed any small chance the destroyer has. If you change that to 4000 meters and then start things off the destroyer would at least have a chance, otherwise no way. Essentially, the destroyer will never find the carrier until the carrier finds it first…and that will be all she wrote. The only variable will be how long can the destroyer fend off the missile and air attacks before it goes down in a fiery blaze of glory. if you bring the destroyer into 4,000 meters, the carrier is well within firing range of the destroyer’s 4.5 inch guns… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/28 "2014-07-06T07:04:29Z")
Now, if the destroyer was escorting a swarm of guided missile frigates, they might have a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/29 "2014-07-06T10:26:22Z")
I’m going to go with the super destroyer. One that has a good captain and crew who have carefully studied the scenario and came up with a good plan. Much the same as the terrorists at 9/11 figured out a way to bring down the twin towers. I’m assuming the carrier isnt operating in the wide ocean but closer to shore which in many areas is crowded with civilian ships and islands. My scenario - the destroyer comes in close by masking its radar signature by sailing close to a civilian ship such as an oil tanker. It gets in close, say within 20-30 miles then launches its anti-ship missiles. The carriers exact position is given up by a nearby yaugt with the deck crowded with bikini clad females but also containing a laser targeting system. The carriers defenses manage to shoot down most of the missiles but at least one gets thru and gets a hit. The carriers ability to launch planes is slowed. The destroyer then guns its motors and drives fast towards the carrier. The carriers cap detects the incoming destroyer and moves to sink it. In addition some planes are launched and new planes have anti ship missiles loaded. The destroyers defenses fight off the planes missiles and bears down on the carrier which turns away and runs like hell. When the destroyer gets within 5 miles of the carrier it fires its anti ship missiles point blank. More of these get thru, striking crucial areas. Not sinking it but stopping it from launching more aircraft. The destroyer continues to close until it can now fire its 5 inch guns and torpedoes which then finish off the carrier. Granted such a strategy could be used only once. Some German commerce raiders did something similar in the early stages of WW2 by disguising themselves as civilian ships. I think also what could become a game changer will be rail guns. These can fire at a target 75 miles away and the projectile, coming in at faster than the speed of sound, will be too fast and small to fend off. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/30 "2014-07-06T13:28:09Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > My scenario - the destroyer comes in close by masking its radar signature by sailing close to a civilian ship such as an oil tanker. It gets in close, say within 20-30 miles then launches its anti-ship missiles. The carriers exact position is given up by a nearby yaugt with the deck crowded with bikini clad females but also containing a laser targeting system. The carriers defenses manage to shoot down most of the missiles but at least one gets thru and gets a hit. The carriers ability to launch planes is slowed. The destroyer then guns its motors and drives fast towards the carrier. The carriers cap detects the incoming destroyer and moves to sink it. In addition some planes are launched and new planes have anti ship missiles loaded. The destroyers defenses fight off the planes missiles and bears down on the carrier which turns away and runs like hell. When the destroyer gets within 5 miles of the carrier it fires its anti ship missiles point blank. More of these get thru, striking crucial areas. Not sinking it but stopping it from launching more aircraft. The destroyer continues to close until it can now fire its 5 inch guns and torpedoes which then finish off the carrier. I’ve just optioned this for a screenplay 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/31 "2014-07-06T18:29:16Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I’ve just optioned this for a screenplay 😉 Thanks. While yes, the carrier would have the advantage if it truly is 100 miles away from the destroyer and has the time to fuel, arm, and ready all of its plane for combat - what happens if that advantage is taken away? Many times an enemy has used stealth or subterfuge to get past an enemy defense. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/32 "2014-07-06T19:00:21Z")
The destroyer could fly false colors and try ramming the carrier while hoisting the Jolly Roger. But that’s plot already optioned by Asylum. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/33 "2014-07-06T19:04:50Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Thanks. > > While yes, the carrier would have the advantage if it truly is 100 miles away from the destroyer and has the time to fuel, arm, and ready all of its plane for combat - what happens if that advantage is taken away? > > Many times an enemy has used stealth or subterfuge to get past an enemy defense. Except the OP specified that the starting range would be 4000 kilometers (which is more than half of the maximum range of most destroyers…while the carrier effectively has unlimited range). There is about zero chance that the destroyer would get to even 100 miles range of the carrier unless through some sort of deception, and if we are doing a carrier verse destroyer cage match then presumably both ships would know what’s going on. The carrier captain would simply pick a very empty part of the ocean and steam in circles while using the carriers recon birds to search for the destroyer. All this hiding in islands and fog banks and such is pure fantasy unless the carrier captain is a complete moron. ---
**Author:** ![jcheung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@jcheung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcheung)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/34 "2014-07-06T23:38:53Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I’m going to go with the super destroyer. One that has a good captain and crew who have carefully studied the scenario and came up with a good plan. Much the same as the terrorists at 9/11 figured out a way to bring down the twin towers. I’m assuming the carrier isnt operating in the wide ocean but closer to shore which in many areas is crowded with civilian ships and islands. > > My scenario - the destroyer comes in close by masking its radar signature by sailing close to a civilian ship such as an oil tanker. It gets in close, say within 20-30 miles then launches its anti-ship missiles. The carriers exact position is given up by a nearby yaugt with the deck crowded with bikini clad females but also containing a laser targeting system. The carriers defenses manage to shoot down most of the missiles but at least one gets thru and gets a hit. The carriers ability to launch planes is slowed. The destroyer then guns its motors and drives fast towards the carrier. The carriers cap detects the incoming destroyer and moves to sink it. In addition some planes are launched and new planes have anti ship missiles loaded. The destroyers defenses fight off the planes missiles and bears down on the carrier which turns away and runs like hell. When the destroyer gets within 5 miles of the carrier it fires its anti ship missiles point blank. More of these get thru, striking crucial areas. Not sinking it but stopping it from launching more aircraft. The destroyer continues to close until it can now fire its 5 inch guns and torpedoes which then finish off the carrier. > > Granted such a strategy could be used only once. > > Some German commerce raiders did something similar in the early stages of WW2 by disguising themselves as civilian ships. > > I think also what could become a game changer will be rail guns. These can fire at a target 75 miles away and the projectile, coming in at faster than the speed of sound, will be too fast and small to fend off. Ah, but see… if they launched the antiship missiles, the 4 sea skimming harpoons, at 20 miles… that’s well outside the range of the Nimitz class air defenses, giving them about two minutes to lock on with RIM-116 RAMs, CIWS and RIM-162 ESSM (right on the edge of the last one), and assuming alert fighters were on the cat, they can launch an average of 1 plane every 20 seconds, meaning 5-6 new planes up and in the air… at a minimum. Assuming that one missile makes i through causing severe damage and takes out 2 catapults, that’s going to slow it to about 1 plane every 30-35 seconds after the hit… I wonder if harpoons can be reloaded, if not, they are left with choppers and the deck gun for antiship warfare… As for railguns, they aren’t on either ship yet, i suspect that when they are a reliable weapon, ship sizes will get a little smaller. Also, the range on a railgun is double or triple what you said it was :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/35 "2014-07-07T05:22:46Z")
> [@jcheung](#): > > Ah, but see… if they launched the antiship missiles, the 4 sea skimming harpoons, at 20 miles… that’s well outside the range of the Nimitz class air defenses, giving them about two minutes to lock on with RIM-116 RAMs, CIWS and RIM-162 ESSM (right on the edge of the last one), and assuming alert fighters were on the cat, they can launch an average of 1 plane every 20 seconds, meaning 5-6 new planes up and in the air… at a minimum. > Assuming that one missile makes i through causing severe damage and takes out 2 catapults, that’s going to slow it to about 1 plane every 30-35 seconds after the hit… I wonder if harpoons can be reloaded, if not, they are left with choppers and the deck gun for antiship warfare… > > As for railguns, they aren’t on either ship yet, i suspect that when they are a reliable weapon, ship sizes will get a little smaller. Also, the range on a railgun is double or triple what you said it was :rolleyes: I think your forgetting that a determined enemy will study the other and look for weaknesses or will build a weapons platform to beat the enemy. So in this situation as I said, the destroyer wouldnt sit hundreds of miles away and wait for the carrier to take it out. It would figure out a way to get in closer. And those 4 harpoon missiles - why not upgrade and make it 8, or even 10? The point is they know they must get in close and they have just ONE shot to fire at the carrier with the hopes of overwhelming its defenses. Now hopefully the US Navy has also thought of just this scenario and has taken precautions. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/36 "2014-07-07T06:05:27Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I think your forgetting that a determined enemy will study the other and look for weaknesses or will build a weapons platform to beat the enemy. > > So in this situation as I said, the destroyer wouldnt sit hundreds of miles away and wait for the carrier to take it out. It would figure out a way to get in closer. And those 4 harpoon missiles - why not upgrade and make it 8, or even 10? The point is they know they must get in close and they have just ONE shot to fire at the carrier with the hopes of overwhelming its defenses. > > Now hopefully the US Navy has also thought of just this scenario and has taken precautions. It seems in this scenario, the carrier has grounded all BARCAPs and all it’s E-2 AWACs. And they have their radars shut down also. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/37 "2014-07-07T10:57:28Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > It seems in this scenario, the carrier has grounded all BARCAPs and all it’s E-2 AWACs. And they have their radars shut down also. No, they have all that. But can radar detect a destroyer when its shadowing a super oil carrier or freighter? And if the cap is high enough they might not spot it either. ---
**Author:** ![jcheung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@jcheung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcheung)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/38 "2014-07-07T12:35:01Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I think your forgetting that a determined enemy will study the other and look for weaknesses or will build a weapons platform to beat the enemy. > > So in this situation as I said, the destroyer wouldnt sit hundreds of miles away and wait for the carrier to take it out. It would figure out a way to get in closer. And those 4 harpoon missiles - why not upgrade and make it 8, or even 10? The point is they know they must get in close and they have just ONE shot to fire at the carrier with the hopes of overwhelming its defenses. > > Now hopefully the US Navy has also thought of just this scenario and has taken precautions. Why 4? Because the other 4 launchers are pointed the other direction. The D-33 only has x2 quad missile launchers for AShMs. Which actually means 2 salvos. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, they have all that. But can radar detect a destroyer when its shadowing a super oil carrier or freighter? > > And if the cap is high enough they might not spot it either. …Yes, radar from CAP will tag them because it is a different angle than the ship. Not to mention, if there’s 1 tanker, there’s bound to be a lot more radio traffic from other vessels mentioning the big bad warship all buddy-buddy with this other ship. Also, now that I think about it, at what angle would you be able to both approach and hide the bulk of a warship? Keep in mind that carriers are just about never stationary… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/39 "2014-07-07T15:39:12Z")
[QUOTE=Urbanredneck] No, they have all that. But can radar detect a destroyer when its shadowing a super oil carrier or freighter? [/QUOTE] It’s moot whether they can or not, since there is no reason the carrier would let ANY unknown ship into range, regardless of what kind it is. Again, the OPs scenario starts off at 4000 KM. Assuming the carrier is clued into this death match scenario (and they would have to know something was up, since, you know, all their escorts are gone), it’s not going to be taking chances or going to personally investigate some oil carrier or freighter…hell, it’s not going to be putting itself into any of the trade lanes unless the captain is an idiot. So, any ship coming out toward it is going to have planes flying over them directly, several hundred miles out. Whether the destroyer can or can’t hide in the radar shadow of another boat it’s not going to be able to hide itself physically from air craft from the carrier buzzing right overhead. And if/when it shoots at the planes the jig is up…no more destroyer. > [@](#): > > And if the cap is high enough they might not spot it either. If an unknown ship is headed towards the carrier then they could easily send planes to do a visual inspection…in fact, they WOULD be doing that. They aren’t going to blithely rely on radar and nothing else, especially in such an unusual situation as a carrier in a combat scenario with no escorting ships. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400/40 "2014-07-07T16:00:29Z")
How is the destroyer going to find the carrier without lighting off a radar or 2? And fire control radars make a **great** target for anti-radiation missiles. Is the destroyer going to do the search with embarked helos? Great, an air contact, let’s just see where it goes to land. ( **dba fred** , former USNR LT who spent 1.5 deployments on USS Enterprise (CVN-65) as Surface Watch Officer in CIC [now CDC] _hoping_ something interesting would happen, jealous of the small boys who got to make more port visits) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-would-win-supercarrier-vs-superdestroyer/692400.md?page=3)