# Who ya gonna call? \[Is there any proof of ghosts, demons, or evil spirits?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119 "2013-11-05T03:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/181 "2013-11-09T01:17:16Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Which, as has been pointed out to you dozens of times, is useless. It can be a starting point for an investigation, but experience by itself is not evidence. We’ve pointed out many more plausible interpretations of your experiences that you ignore, dismiss, or refuse to accept. > > You say you have seen a ghost but if you presented the same evidence to someone else they would say that they were dreaming, or were tricked by a play of the light, or were under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs, or it was an artifact of loss of oxygen, or they were tricked by special effects, or simply mistaken. All of these can be demonstrated, repeated, and studied. Your ghost claim is assuming a conclusion and looking for data to support it. > > It’s bad logic, non-science, and pretty annoying. And extremely predictable as demonstrate the exact same pattern in every thread you engage in. > > BTW, I’m certainly not writing this response for you as I have no faith that you’ll ever read or understand the issue. I write this for others who can learn from your poor example. So my experience is useless. But what else is there? The rudest cut of all. Now I am hallucinating or dreaming and you know all of this intuitively. There is nothing left to say in the face of your indictment. Not a smidgeon of self-awareness is present only a righteous judgement of the ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/182 "2013-11-09T01:21:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > So my experience is useless. But what else is there? Facts. > [@](#): > > Not a smidgeon of self-awareness is present only a righteous judgement of the ignorant. This is borderline self-parody. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/183 "2013-11-09T01:23:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > So my experience is useless. Yes. So is mine. That’s why we have science, to distinguish between the useless, the possible, and the factual. > [@](#): > > But what else is there? Science. It’s all we have. And it’s pretty good at it. Without it, right now you’d be babbling over a dying campfire in the wilderness, huddling to keep warm and wondering where your next meal is coming from instead of happily typing on a computer in a cozy room after a satisfying repast prepared in your well-stocked kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/184 "2013-11-09T01:34:15Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > So my experience is useless. But what else is there? The rudest cut of all. Now I am hallucinating or dreaming and you know all of this intuitively. As pointed before, it is just that that is the most likely explanation: human altered states. Ocam’s razor can be a harsh mistress. > [@lekatt](#): > > There is nothing left to say in the face of your indictment. Not a smidgeon of self-awareness is present only a righteous judgement of the ignorant. Now that is silly, there is plenty of evidence of altered states that fit what you saw, the ignorance that you have here is demonstrated by not being aware of the previous and current research. > **[Hallucination](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hallucination)** > > A hallucination is a "perception without a stimulus" — in other words, seeing something that isn't there. It is distinct from delusion, or demonstrably false belief of pathological origin; however, the two are often caused by the same mental... > [@](#): > > A hallucination is a “perception without a stimulus” — in other words, seeing something that isn’t there. > > Hallucinations are a symptom of certain mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, certain forms of dementia, Parkinson’s disease, and epilepsy. They can also be experienced by the ingestion of psychoactive substances, most notably LSD. > > There are also two common forms of hallucination called hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations which are unrelated to mental illness, the former occurring before sleep and the latter during the process of waking up. Blurred vision and switching between alert and sleeping states can cause anyone to see strange things. These hallucinations can create false memories. Similarly, sleep paralysis can cause memorably frightening hallucinations. > **[Hypnagogic hallucinations](https://patient.info/doctor/hypnagogic-hallucinations)** > > Hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucinations are visual, tactile, auditory, or other sensory events. Clinical resource for causes, symptoms, and treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/185 "2013-11-09T15:33:27Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > My best evidence is experience. In your experience, am I you? That is to say, i’ve argued with you a few times on this board; in your experience, do I react to you in the way that you yourself would react to you? Is this very post i’m currently making the post that a copy of you would make in response to your post? You have experience of yourself, and the only evaluation you need to make to answer the question is “Is this what I would do, based on my experience, or not?”, so you should be able to answer it, I think. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/186 "2013-11-09T17:31:46Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Why would I want to do this being a non-scientist. Can you speak to non-scientists. > [@lekatt](#): > > My best evidence is experience. I know others have tried to explain why they don’t agree with the above, but since you are asking politely let have a go. The **scientific method** first looks at evidence and then makes hypotheses and theories to explain it. If new evidence comes along, the theory must be changed to explain it. Anyone can test the theory and get the same results. This simple idea has led to **everything** that works in our world. The method explains chemical reactions, our genetic code, medicine, computers, accurate eclipse predictions, the effects of gravity, spaceships etc. etc. if you say you’re a **non-scientist** , you mean that you’ve got a better way of explaining the World and producing results. What is it and what results can you show? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/187 "2013-11-09T20:54:16Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > In your experience, am I you? That is to say, i’ve argued with you a few times on this board; in your experience, do I react to you in the way that you yourself would react to you? Is this very post i’m currently making the post that a copy of you would make in response to your post? You have experience of yourself, and the only evaluation you need to make to answer the question is “Is this what I would do, based on my experience, or not?”, so you should be able to answer it, I think. You are not me, of course. While it is true I experience myself, I also experience you and many other people, the world, the books I have read. What does that mean to you? I have experience spiritual events on a regular repeatable basis. I have received small gifts from spiritual beings in flowers, small statues, marbles of many colors, balloons, even small amounts of money which I have spent. That can hardly be call a delusion. Everyone is spiritual and has a spirit guide. If you ignore your spirituality your guide will leave. Millions of people know this. Science is not God, it is made-up by men. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/188 "2013-11-09T20:58:43Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I know others have tried to explain why they don’t agree with the above, but since you are asking politely let have a go. > > The **scientific method** first looks at evidence and then makes hypotheses and theories to explain it. > If new evidence comes along, the theory must be changed to explain it. > Anyone can test the theory and get the same results. > > This simple idea has led to **everything** that works in our world. > The method explains chemical reactions, our genetic code, medicine, computers, accurate eclipse predictions, the effects of gravity, spaceships etc. etc. > > if you say you’re a **non-scientist** , you mean that you’ve got a better way of explaining the World and producing results. > What is it and what results can you show? I know what the scientific method is I just don’t believe in it any more than I believe in the Bible. I am not a devotee of some belief system. Yes I can explain the world in spiritual terms and concepts rationally. The field of spiritually is very large with many facets. It takes years to study it and understand it. There is a shortcut but it was rejected here very quickly. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/189 "2013-11-09T21:14:10Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I know what the scientific method is I just don’t believe in it any more than I believe in the Bible. I am not a devotee of some belief system. 100% wrong. Science is not a belief system. “Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.” - Richard Feynman - The Pleasure of Finding Things Out. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/190 "2013-11-09T22:55:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > 100% wrong. Science is not a belief system. > > “Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.” - Richard Feynman - The Pleasure of Finding Things Out. Then you don’t believe in science either. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/191 "2013-11-09T23:47:03Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Then you don’t believe in science either. Nonsensical point, science allows you to know the most probable path to take; if your ideas are not confirmed by experiment or the results show something else, it does not matter how nice your idea is, it is wrong. I may believe that the experiments will show the results I wanted, but in the end the data will tell me if there is a reason to continue with my beliefs. You see, the important thing is that science will allow many others to see progress, \*\*regardless of what I or you believe. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/192 "2013-11-09T23:56:52Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You are not me, of course. While it is true I experience myself, I also experience you and many other people, the world, the books I have read. What does that mean to you? I have experience spiritual events on a regular repeatable basis. I have received small gifts from spiritual beings in flowers, small statues, marbles of many colors, balloons, even small amounts of money which I have spent. That can hardly be call a delusion. Everyone is spiritual and has a spirit guide. If you ignore your spirituality your guide will leave. Millions of people know this. Science is not God, it is made-up by men. On what basis do you claim that “of course” i’m not you? I gave an example when I asked the question, but while you answered the question you didn’t agree or disagree with that suggestion. What are you basing your claim that i’m not you on? You don’t have access to my experiences to check. If “of course” it’s not so - why? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/193 "2013-11-10T00:38:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I know what the scientific method is I just don’t believe in it any more than I believe in the Bible. I am not a devotee of some belief system. Yes I can explain the world in spiritual terms and concepts rationally. The field of spiritually is very large with many facets. It takes years to study it and understand it. There is a shortcut but it was rejected here very quickly. I don’t understand why you compare the scientific method with the Bible. As i said, the scientific method has produced everything that works in our World. It’s **not** a belief system (such as religion, where there is no physical evidence to support it.) The results of using the **scientific method** work for everyone whether they believe in it or not. Do you accept our knowledge of chemical reactions? Do you agree that we can accurately predict eclipses? You use a computer and the Internet - do you accept that they came about using the scientific method? Do you think there are satellites orbiting the earth allowing TV and phone calls? By comparison, you claim you have a spirit guide who (for example) occasionally sends you gifts. What else can your guide do? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/194 "2013-11-10T01:43:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nonsensical point, science allows you to know the most probable path to take; if your ideas are not confirmed by experiment or the results show something else, it does not matter how nice your idea is, it is wrong. > > I may believe that the experiments will show the results I wanted, but in the end the data will tell me if there is a reason to continue with my beliefs. You see, the important thing is that science will allow many others to see progress, \*\*regardless of what I or you believe. \*\* I have no idea what this means to me. When I experience something I know I experience something. I have no need to test the experience. If I had to test every experience I had how would I get anything done. I don’t believe you test every experience you have. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/195 "2013-11-10T01:46:20Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > On what basis do you claim that “of course” i’m not you? I gave an example when I asked the question, but while you answered the question you didn’t agree or disagree with that suggestion. What are you basing your claim that i’m not you on? You don’t have access to my experiences to check. If “of course” it’s not so - why? I don’t need access to your experiences that you are not me in order to know that you are not me. I can simply observe that. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/196 "2013-11-10T01:50:39Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I don’t need access to your experiences that you are not me in order to know that you are not me. I can simply observe that. By what means, though? I mean, if someone hands me an apple and asks me if it’s an elephant, I can say no because they wouldn’t be able to hand me an elephant, or because it’s not grey, or because it’s not trumpeting, etc. How are you determining that i’m not you? What are you judging? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/197 "2013-11-10T02:00:44Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I don’t understand why you compare the scientific method with the Bible. > > As i said, the scientific method has produced everything that works in our World. It’s **not** a belief system (such as religion, where there is no physical evidence to support it.) > > The results of using the **scientific method** work for everyone whether they believe in it or not. > > Do you accept our knowledge of chemical reactions? > Do you agree that we can accurately predict eclipses? > You use a computer and the Internet - do you accept that they came about using the scientific method? > Do you think there are satellites orbiting the earth allowing TV and phone calls? > > By comparison, you claim you have a spirit guide who (for example) occasionally sends you gifts. > What else can your guide do? Sounds like you are describing God instead of science. God works also whether you believe in Him or not. There would be chemical reactions with or without science. Way before science some people knew about the eclipses by observation. Jobs was a kid when He invented the home computer. The internet become possible through college computers tied together. You do worship science as others would God. My guide is very creative, you wouldn’t believe what He can do. Science is a substitute for God, how could I think differently from the explanations you gave. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/198 "2013-11-10T02:11:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have no idea what this means to me. When I experience something I know I experience something. I have no need to test the experience. If I had to test every experience I had how would I get anything done. I don’t believe you test every experience you have. That is precisely the point when Feynman mentions the big chance that then we can fool ourselves. I can be amazed at seeing insect critters in the morning (it has happened a few times to me), but after I experimented further I found that it was some stuff floating in my eyes and my brain filling in the details during sleep paralysis, luckily I also have some ability on lucid dreaming so those apparitions became less scary after I figured out how to move during those paralysis events and “crush” the critters, found out that indeed they were in my mind and in eye particles and I made them fade away and less common and frightening. Investigating further showed that those hallucinations are common: > **[Opinion | Seeing Things? Hearing Things? Many of Us Do (Published 2012)](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/opinion/sunday/seeing-things-hearing-things-many-of-us-do.html?_r=0)** > > Hallucinations are often entirely normal and can be entertaining. It would be indeed very comforting for your point of view if we where in the middle ages, but unfortunately for you we are not there anymore. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/199 "2013-11-10T02:17:33Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Sounds like you are describing God instead of science. God works also whether you believe in Him or not. There would be chemical reactions with or without science. Way before science some people knew about the eclipses by observation. Jobs was a kid when He invented the home computer. The internet become possible through college computers tied together. You do worship science as others would God. As Tim Minchin can tell you, your point here has already been tried many times before and only demonstrates more ignorance: [http://www.maxilyrics.com/tim-minchin-storm-lyrics-5586.html](http://www.maxilyrics.com/tim-minchin-storm-lyrics-5586.html) > [@](#): > > Storm: “You’re so sure of your position But you’re just closed-minded I think you’ll find Your faith in Science and Tests Is just as blind As the faith of any fundamentalist” > > Tim Minchin: "Hm that’s a good point, let me think for a bit… > > Oh wait, my mistake, that’s absolute bullshit. Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/200 "2013-11-10T04:11:27Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I don’t understand why you compare the scientific method with the Bible. > > As i said, the scientific method has produced everything that works in our World. It’s **not** a belief system (such as religion, where there is no physical evidence to support it.) > > The results of using the **scientific method** work for everyone whether they believe in it or not. > > Do you accept our knowledge of chemical reactions? > Do you agree that we can accurately predict eclipses? > You use a computer and the Internet - do you accept that they came about using the scientific method? > Do you think there are satellites orbiting the earth allowing TV and phone calls? > > By comparison, you claim you have a spirit guide who (for example) occasionally sends you gifts. > What else can your guide do? > [@lekatt](#): > > Sounds like you are describing God instead of science. God works also whether you believe in Him or not. There would be chemical reactions with or without science. Way before science some people knew about the eclipses by observation. Jobs was a kid when He invented the home computer. The internet become possible through college computers tied together. You do worship science as others would God. > > My guide is very creative, you wouldn’t believe what He can do. > > Science is a substitute for God, how could I think differently from the explanations you gave. Actually God doesn’t give any physical indication that he exists. So how does he ‘work’? You seem incredibly confused about science. Science does not create chemical reactions; it observes and predicts accurately how they will occur. Science does not create eclipses, but it does allow us to predict them. The Internet could only have happened with scientific method. Scientific theory changes with new evidence; Gods never change (since there’s no evidence for them.) Can your guide put satellites in space and thus create a world-wide telephone network? Can your guide eliminate diseases world-wide (like science did with smallpox?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119.md?page=11)