# Who ya gonna call? \[Is there any proof of ghosts, demons, or evil spirits?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119 "2013-11-05T03:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/21 "2013-11-05T20:08:00Z")
Is it possible that everything existing in this world can be proven to exist by science? That it is not possible for something to exist and not be able to be proven by science? If this is so then why do so many people keep seeing ghosts? Are they all delusional or is science wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/22 "2013-11-05T20:14:23Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > No, Simon wants an _ **opinion** _: > > Other posters in this thread have given theirs in the negative and none so far has asked them to prove the validity of their claims. Likewise, I’ve given mine with the intent that he understands the scope and duration of the work ahead if he truly and sincerely wishes to encounter and a demon or evil spirit. > > First the seeker will be required to understand the _ **theory** _ of the art before applying anything. There are techniques that once put in practice will live the practitioner in no doubt that there’s some validity to the theory. However, all this depends on one’s persistence and resilience. It’s not referred to as\*\*\* learned\*\*\* magic for no reason. It’s an art reserved for those willing to put in the time to master it just as any under-grad and/or post-grad student would. Pretending is fun, isn’t it? You get to believe that you have you have special knowledge and/or magical powers. _We are not pretending here_, so unless you or anyone else you know of can call forth any sort of supernatural entity and make it appear to someone other than yourself(i.e. your overactive imagination), then you’ve got absolutely nothing in the way of real knowledge, evidence or proof. Can you do this one small thing? Do you know of _anyone_ else that can do this one small thing? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/23 "2013-11-05T20:18:18Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Is it possible that everything existing in this world can be proven to exist by science? That it is not possible for something to exist and not be able to be proven by science? If this is so then why do so many people keep seeing ghosts? Are they all delusional or is science wrong. When come back, bring evidence that you’ve opened a basic science textbook. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/24 "2013-11-05T21:25:42Z")
What is a ghost? Stephen said with tingling energy. One who has faded into impalpability through death, through absence, through change of manners. Elizabethan London lay as far from Stratford as corrupt Paris lies from virgin Dublin. Who is the ghost from limbo patrum, returning to the world that has forgotten him? Who is King Hamlet? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/25 "2013-11-05T21:26:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When come back, bring evidence that you’ve opened a basic science textbook. Will a science book answer my questions? Cite ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/26 "2013-11-05T21:31:17Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Cite? For Jesus and the Apostles being exorcists, my cite is the Gospels and Acts. (Jesus seems to have diagnosed **most** ailments as demonic possession.) For the rest, see [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcist#Christianity). > [@](#): > > Since the Council of Trent in 16th century, “Exorcist” was one of the four minor orders in the Roman Catholic Church, received after the tonsure. At the time this order was formally defined and confined exclusively to exorcism of the catechumen in the rite of Baptism, leaving exorcisms of demons to priests; but its role was later expanded. By the twentieth century, the order had become purely ceremonial. As a minor order, Exorcists wore the surplice. The office of Exorcist was not a part of the sacrament of Holy Orders but as a sacramental was instead first conferred on those who had the special charism to perform its duties and later to those studying for the priesthood.[1] Nevertheless, until recent times, Catholic exorcists were both clerical and lay, since every Christian has the power to command demons and drive them out in the name of Christ.[2] > > The Exorcist order was suppressed during the reforms of the minor orders after the Second Vatican Council by Paul VI. The rite of conferral continues in societies that use the 1962 form of the Roman Rite, such as the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, or earlier forms, such as the Society of St. Pius V. Some believe that attainment of the position of Acolyte in post-Council practices implies ordination to the minor orders which used to be below it, such as Exorcist and Porter, although this has not been officially defined (although Canon Law section 1009 does specifically state that the only “orders are the episcopate, the priesthood and the diaconate”). > > The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that: “Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing”.[3] Recently, many dioceses have formally appointed priests to the function of Exorcist as a result of reaffirmation of exorcism as a necessary ritual by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Gabriele Amorth is the chief exorcist of the Diocese of Rome, and founder of the International Association of Exorcists. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/27 "2013-11-05T21:39:18Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Will a science book answer my questions? Cite If you would ever open one up with the intention of learning from it instead of reinterpreting it to fit your own established worldview, you would have the answer to your question. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/28 "2013-11-05T21:39:52Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > No, Simon wants an _ **opinion** _: > if he truly and sincerely wishes to encounter and a demon or evil spirit. > > First the seeker will be required to understand the _ **theory** _ of the art before applying anything. There are techniques that once put in practice will live the practitioner in no doubt that there’s some validity to the theory. However, all this depends on one’s persistence and resilience. It’s not referred to as\*\*\* learned\*\*\* magic for no reason. It’s an art reserved for those willing to put in the time to master it just as any under-grad and/or post-grad student would. I don’t see that the OP gave any indication that he wished to summon a demon or spirit, just that he wanted to know if there was any proof that such things existed. Answer: no Also I would take “Straight Dope level opinion” to be one that can be stand up to scrutiny and be supported with cites. If he just wanted everyone’s personal unsubstantiated feeling about ghosts he would have started the thread in IMHO rather than general questions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/29 "2013-11-05T21:49:23Z")
Now, I am willing to be open minded about this subject. Although no evidence has been brought forth so far, if any wish to come forward and give their _best_ evidence for the existence of demons and/or ghosts and/or evil spirits and/or any other supernatural entities, please do so that it might be examined and discussed. In fact, to save time, let’s just skip with any “I have evidence, but you would just dismiss it so I’m not gonna!” statements, or You Tube videos of people telling tall tales-that’s just a stall tactic. Evidence, please. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/30 "2013-11-05T22:06:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Now, I am willing to be open minded about this subject. Although no evidence has been brought forth so far, if any wish to come forward and give their _best_ evidence for the existence of demons and/or ghosts and/or evil spirits and/or any other supernatural entities, please do so that it might be examined and discussed. In fact, to save time, let’s just skip with any “I have evidence, but you would just dismiss it so I’m not gonna!” statements, or You Tube videos of people telling tall tales-that’s just a stall tactic. Evidence, please. _sigh_ Fine, fine, I’ll send some 'round later tonight. [draws circle, lights candles] ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/31 "2013-11-05T22:19:05Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Will a science book answer my questions? Cite Start with [this one](http://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Science-Very-Short-Introduction/dp/0192802836). With luck it will dissuade you from the “but you can’t prove ghosts don’t exist” line of argument. After that we can start looking at the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/32 "2013-11-06T01:19:55Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Start with [this one](http://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Science-Very-Short-Introduction/dp/0192802836). With luck it will dissuade you from the “but you can’t prove ghosts don’t exist” line of argument. After that we can start looking at the evidence. I never put forth that argument, but it does have merit. I did learn from reading the first few pages that science is related to philosophy. When I went to school and studied science it had nothing to do with philosophy. Philosophy was left to the deepest thinkers and the studies of mind, God, and other unknowable issues. Science was devoted to finding cures for illness, biology, better food production and other beneficials to human pursuits. Pursuits that had a physical solution. Science has changed considerable since then and became a catch-all for everything. I dislike this even more. I was expecting only facts and truth from science and now it gives philosophy. I can understand your position better now, and why scientists believe as they do. I did notice that it is still scientific to observe events and write about them. Now on the subject of ghosts, demons, and evil spirits which is said not to exist because the methods used by science cannot measure them. Since these methods were created by scientists, who is to say they are infallible methods and are guaranteed to “measure, capture, and expose” all the existing events that happen on this earth. Furthermore that other events these methods cannot “measure, capture, and expose” will be relegated to nonsense, delusions, woo woo, and illusions. I cannot buy this and I believe any serious rational thinking person can’t either. Millions of people say they have seen ghosts, demons, and evil spirits over all of history. Now we are to believe science has solved this phenomena. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/33 "2013-11-06T01:37:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Millions of people say they have seen ghosts, demons, and evil spirits over all of history. Now we are to believe science has solved this phenomena. Again, “It’s just very unlikely”, regardless of how many think they exist. Millions of people think that the ones that do not have their faith are heretics. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/34 "2013-11-06T01:52:48Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Now on the subject of ghosts, demons, and evil spirits which is said not to exist because the methods used by science cannot measure them. Since these methods were created by scientists, who is to say they are infallible methods and are guaranteed to “measure, capture, and expose” all the existing events that happen on this earth. Furthermore that other events these methods cannot “measure, capture, and expose” will be relegated to nonsense, delusions, woo woo, and illusions. I cannot buy this and I believe any serious rational thinking person can’t either. This is not only absolute crap, but you have been told _before_ that this is absolute crap. The scientists that say and believe these things reside only in your vivid imagination along with all your misunderstandings about the nature of reality. I ask you(not politely, for you have repeated this far too many times for any polite response) to back up your crass statements with cites from scientists saying things like this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/35 "2013-11-06T01:53:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Millions of people say they have seen ghosts, demons, and evil spirits over all of history. Now we are to believe science has solved this phenomena. Cite for such a claim being made. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/36 "2013-11-06T02:03:38Z")
[I think this XKCD makes that claim in a clever way.](http://xkcd.com/1235/) But it’s not “science” saying it even though it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![thepillar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@thepillar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thepillar)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/37 "2013-11-06T05:41:10Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > To be clear: Your belief is that a) angels, demons, spirits etc. do, in fact, exist, and furthermore that b) they can be summoned through ceremonial magic, and furthermore that c) through this process, one can acquire ironclad proof that they do indeed exist? This is exactly my proposition. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Pretending is fun, isn’t it? You get to believe that you have you have special knowledge and/or magical powers. I clearly stated earlier on that if anyone finds my response to be outlandish, then they’re are free to altogether dismiss it and go on to believe that demons don’t exist. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Also I would take “Straight Dope level opinion” to be one that can be stand up to scrutiny and be supported with cites. You mean like this one? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s no evidence such things exist, or are even possible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/38 "2013-11-06T05:50:15Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > I clearly stated earlier on that if anyone finds my response to be outlandish, then they’re are free to altogether dismiss it and go on to believe that demons don’t exist. We are also free to back up your (so far) unsupported assertions with evidence. > [@thepillar](#): > > You mean like this one? He doesn’t need to provide a cite that there is no evidence-in fact, such a cite would be damn near impossible for obvious reasons. The only people here that should provide evidence for claims are those of you who make the initial incredible claim. Got evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/39 "2013-11-06T06:14:40Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Is it possible that everything existing in this world can be proven to exist by science? That it is not possible for something to exist and not be able to be proven by science? If this is so then why do so many people keep seeing ghosts? Are they all delusional or is science wrong. Since science is the study of anything that exists, then yeah. You can say that there are things that can’t be falsified by the tools at our disposal, sure, but if it exists, it’s part of the world of science, by definition. ---
**Author:** ![thepillar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@thepillar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thepillar)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/40 "2013-11-06T06:21:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > We are also free to back up your (so far) unsupported assertions with evidence. You mean disprove the efficacy of Ceremonial Magic? Be my guest. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > He doesn’t need to provide a cite that there is no evidence-in fact, such a cite would be damn near impossible for obvious reasons. Is this one of those “Straight Dope level opinions” or just a cop out? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Got evidence? Next time you ask for proof from someone you don’t know, make sure there’s a clearly elaborated and mutually accepted standard of proof. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119.md?page=3)