# Who ya gonna call? \[Is there any proof of ghosts, demons, or evil spirits?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119 "2013-11-05T03:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/41 "2013-11-06T07:01:24Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > This is exactly my proposition. My problem is not with a) or b). My problem is with c). In other words: I can understand that, through ceremonial magic, ritual work, intense meditation, certain breathing techniques and perhaps the occasional gram or two of morphine, opium, hashish, henbane, hyoscyamine, mescaline or belladonna, or for that matter all of the above at one and the same time, one might at times enter altered states of consciousness, have visions/hallucinations etc., during which one might have _experiences_ which one might, at the time and even afterwards, interpret as direct or indirect contact with supernatural, or shall we say meta-empirical, beings. (Just ask Paschal Beverly Randolph.) The problem is with the _ironclad proof_ which is supposed to come out of these experiences. More often than not, one would be left with nothing more than an experience, correct? A memory of a vision? But then one could not entirely disprove that it was “all in one’s head.” One might be convinced, but convincing others would be just as hard as before. One might have seen, and heard, and one might now believe; but the proof would be lacking nonetheless. Indeed, many modern-day would-be prophets/visionaries/magicians/occultists etc., from at least the Victorian era and until today, would happily (Aleister Crowley) or unhappily (Ernesto Dalgas) admit that the whole thing might well have been entirely subjective all along, a figment of the imagination and nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/42 "2013-11-06T07:03:51Z")
double post ---
**Author:** ![thepillar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@thepillar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thepillar)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/43 "2013-11-06T07:25:08Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > My problem is not with a) or b). > > My problem is with c). > > In other words: I can understand that, through ceremonial magic, ritual work, intense meditation, certain breathing techniques and perhaps the occasional gram or two of morphine, opium, hashish, henbane, hyoscyamine, mescaline or belladonna, or for that matter all of the above at one and the same time, one might at times enter altered states of consciousness, have visions/hallucinations etc., during which one might have _experiences_ which one might, at the time and even afterwards, interpret as direct or indirect contact with supernatural, or shall we say meta-empirical, beings. (Just ask Paschal Beverly Randolph.) > > The problem is with the _ironclad proof_ which is supposed to come out of these experiences. > > More often than not, one would be left with nothing more than an experience, correct? A memory of a vision? But then one could not entirely disprove that it was “all in one’s head.” One might be convinced, but convincing others would be just as hard as before. One might have seen, and heard, and one might now believe; but the proof would be lacking nonetheless. > > Indeed, many modern-day would-be prophets/visionaries/magicians/occultists etc., from at least the Victorian era and until today, would happily (Aleister Crowley) or unhappily (Ernesto Dalgas) admit that the whole thing might well have been entirely subjective all along, a figment of the imagination and nothing more. You have it slightly misconstrued. An independent participant can be invited to observe an invocation of a demon without consuming any mind-altering substances or performing any breathing techniques and the like. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/44 "2013-11-06T07:28:27Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Since science is the study of anything that exists, then yeah. > > You can say that there are things that can’t be falsified by the tools at our disposal, sure, but if it exists, it’s part of the world of science, by definition. Only for certain values of “exist”. Does logic “exist”? Does truth “exist”? Dignity? Obviously they don’t exist as empirically observable material objects and are not susceptible of scientific examination (since science proceeds from empirical observation). But if they exist in any other sense, then they exist, but are not susceptible of scientific study; therfore science is not the study of everything that exists. Ghosts, of cousre, are susceptible of empirical observation, at least as the term “ghost” is commonly understood. So far as I know spectral research largely consists of attempt to record empirical observations of ghosts, or the effects of ghosts. But if we postulate a supernatural reality that is not capable of empirical observation, then science cannot examine it and, it follows, can do nothing either to establish its existence or to refute it. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/45 "2013-11-06T07:30:58Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > You have it slightly misconstrued. An independent participant can be invited to observe an invocation of a demon without consuming any mind-altering substances or performing any breathing techniques and the like. Could said participant bring a camcorder, and record the event? Has this ever happened? ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/46 "2013-11-06T08:03:43Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Only for certain values of “exist”. > > Does logic “exist”? Does truth “exist”? Dignity? Obviously they don’t exist as empirically observable material objects and are not susceptible of scientific examination (since science proceeds from empirical observation). But if they exist in any other sense, then they exist, but are not susceptible of scientific study Jesus, that’s really bad news for all those studying social psychology, then. I guess they better return their grants and their doctorates and all that, since they are not real scientists anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/47 "2013-11-06T08:12:58Z")
I have performed many, many ceremonial rituals and invocations. Including some of the very long or arduous ones such as in various “classical” texts/grimoires. Absolutely squat came up, not even an indication that something may have happened but “fizzled out”. I am very skeptical that I somehow managed to summarily fuck up every single one. I tested this because I figured I might as well test stuff, even if logic and overwhelming scientific evidence says it shouldn’t be possible. In the end I agree with logic and science. Of course, any true believer will always find something. Maybe I didn’t believe enough, maybe I was born cut off from some intangible aether that’s necessary for invocation, maybe Mercury was in retrograde. Maybe I summoned a bunch of stuff that’s hiding and will inexplicably become apparent in 25 years. But I, and several people I know personally have tried to test many purported magic and psychic things (some of them multiple times), and literally 0% has panned out. I suppose it’s **possible** that some of the ones that require you to do things that are incredibly immoral or require large amounts of self harm work, since I didn’t test those for obvious reasons. But… uh, let’s just say I’m still dubious. ---
**Author:** ![thepillar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@thepillar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thepillar)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/48 "2013-11-06T08:14:59Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Could said participant bring a camcorder, and record the event? Has this ever happened? Not sure if it has in this particular manner. However, if you interested you can contact [Christopher Warnock](http://renaissanceastrology.com/biography.html). His specialty is **Astrological** Ceremonial Magic as opposed to **Goetia** Ceremonial Magic (subject matter of thread) but he can help you get in touch those that actually practice the latter. A little interest or support through purchase of his services should be able to do the trick. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/49 "2013-11-06T08:33:14Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I have performed many, many ceremonial rituals and invocations. Including some of the very long or arduous ones such as in various “classical” texts/grimoires. > > Absolutely squat came up, not even an indication that something may have happened but “fizzled out”. I am very skeptical that I somehow managed to summarily fuck up every single one. I tested this because I figured I might as well test stuff, even if logic and overwhelming scientific evidence says it shouldn’t be possible. In the end I agree with logic and science. > > Of course, any true believer will always find something. Maybe I didn’t believe enough, maybe I was born cut off from some intangible aether that’s necessary for invocation, maybe Mercury was in retrograde. Maybe I summoned a bunch of stuff that’s hiding and will inexplicably become apparent in 25 years. But I, and several people I know personally have tried to test many purported magic and psychic things (some of them multiple times), and literally 0% has panned out. > > I suppose it’s **possible** that some of the ones that require you to do things that are incredibly immoral or require large amounts of self harm work, since I didn’t test those for obvious reasons. But… uh, let’s just say I’m still dubious. I should mention, of course, that obviously my personal experiences mean exactly as much as the personal anecdotes of those who totes said bloody mary 3 times and she tried to kill them (which is to say: zero). I’m sure many things have much more public, rigorous, and formal analyses than my bullshit. I’m merely offering my anecdotes as a data point, not necessarily as definitive proof. (It’s still bullshit, though) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/50 "2013-11-06T08:36:09Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > You have it slightly misconstrued. An independent participant can be invited to observe an invocation of a demon without consuming any mind-altering substances or performing any breathing techniques and the like. Could you describe the sort of phenomena you think the observer would be likely to witness? I mean, are we talking about free-floating, full-torso, vaporous apparitions, or would we instead witness the practitioner _talking in a different voice_? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/51 "2013-11-06T08:36:58Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Jesus, that’s really bad news for all those studying social psychology, then. I guess they better return their grants and their doctorates and all that, since they are not real scientists anymore. Why? If it is true that social psychology cannot be classified as a “science” (which is not my assertion, BTW), why does it follow that it cannot be the subject of a PhD, or the award of a grant? I missed the memo that said that only fields of study properly classified a “science” can benefit from these things. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/52 "2013-11-06T08:48:51Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Why? If it is true that social psychology cannot be classified as a “science” (which is not my assertion, BTW), why does it follow that it cannot be the subject of a PhD, or the award of a grant? I missed the memo that said that only fields of study properly classified a “science” can benefit from these things. Whoa. Good comeback. Still, back to the point, yeah, “truth”, “dignity” and “logic” do exist, concepts exist, and they are empirically observed, falsified, and studied. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/53 "2013-11-06T09:21:39Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Whoa. Good comeback. > > Still, back to the point, yeah, “truth”, “dignity” and “logic” do exist, concepts exist, and they are empirically observed, falsified, and studied. How do you empirically observe a concept? ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/54 "2013-11-06T09:52:28Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > How do you empirically observe a concept? If we are talking about Plato-like floating magical ideas, then you can’t, of course. As a psychological effect, which is what they are, concepts exist. It’s like saying that, while the existence of ghosts has never been demonstrated, the belief in the existence of ghosts has. And that can be empirically observed. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/55 "2013-11-06T11:22:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I cannot buy this and I believe any serious rational thinking person can’t either. Just to clarify, this statement says that “lekatt” and “serious rational thinking [people]” are two completely separate, nonoverlapping categories, right? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/56 "2013-11-06T11:33:17Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > How do you empirically observe a concept? Truth isn’t necessarily a concept; there’s a lot of overlap between “truth” and “reality”, and reality is a concrete thing. Try punching a tree, and the truth that it exists will hurt your hand. And logic isn’t just a concept either, it’s a type of relationship between things. As for dignity, that’s an emotional state; if you want to see what it looks like, open up someone’s skull and look. It’s sort of wet and squishy. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/57 "2013-11-06T12:09:35Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > Not sure if it has in this particular manner. However, if you interested you can contact [Christopher Warnock](http://renaissanceastrology.com/biography.html). His specialty is **Astrological** Ceremonial Magic as opposed to **Goetia** Ceremonial Magic (subject matter of thread) but he can help you get in touch those that actually practice the latter. A little interest or support through purchase of his services should be able to do the trick. Fuck that, I ain’t payin’ for shit. If there is video evidence of higher intelligences materializing during ceremonial magic, it should be presented. That shit shouldn’t be behind a fucking paywall. Say what you will about Crowley, at least the guy refused to get paid for his magical work… ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/58 "2013-11-06T12:11:11Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I have performed many, many ceremonial rituals and invocations. Including some of the very long or arduous ones such as in various “classical” texts/grimoires. > > Absolutely squat came up, not even an indication that something may have happened but “fizzled out”. I am very skeptical that I somehow managed to summarily fuck up every single one. I tested this because I figured I might as well test stuff, even if logic and overwhelming scientific evidence says it shouldn’t be possible. In the end I agree with logic and science. > > Of course, any true believer will always find something. Maybe I didn’t believe enough, maybe I was born cut off from some intangible aether that’s necessary for invocation, maybe Mercury was in retrograde. Did you ever believe that it would actually work? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/59 "2013-11-06T12:30:53Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Did you ever believe that it would actually work? How can I put this… I wasn’t certain it **wouldn’t** work, but no, I wasn’t particularly convinced it **would** work either. Don’t let that make you think I only did it half-heartedly though, or only did it for giggles. When I tried, I did my best to go whole-hat. Edit: I started doing this stuff as early as 6th grade. I’m sure at some point in there I may have really truly believed that at least one ritual would do something, but it did taper off into “probably not but I guess it could” eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/60 "2013-11-06T13:21:47Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > You have it slightly misconstrued. An independent participant can be invited to observe an invocation of a demon without consuming any mind-altering substances or performing any breathing techniques and the like. Sorry for reposting the same question, but I have noticed that the last post on the previous page of a thread often gets overlooked - so here it is again: Could you describe the sort of phenomena you think the observer would be likely to witness? I mean, are we talking about free-floating, full-torso, vaporous apparitions, or would we instead witness the practitioner _talking in a different voice_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119.md?page=4)