# Who ya gonna call? \[Is there any proof of ghosts, demons, or evil spirits?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119 "2013-11-05T03:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/101 "2013-11-07T14:11:39Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Czarcasm was replying to something by Simon Templar. Not me-full credit for that one goes to **Peter Morris**. ---
**Author:** ![thepillar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@thepillar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thepillar)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/102 "2013-11-07T14:40:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s a _proposition_. _Evidence_ would be you providing a cite that showed that such had happened, and the name of the skeptic this had happened to. > > _Do you have any evidence for your initial proposition?_ :rolleyes: YOU are the skeptic I was referring to; YOU should try to arrange a meeting with Christoper Warnock so he can refer you to the guys who practice Goetic Ceremonial Magic; and it is YOU who should be present during the ritual in order to witness it yourself. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@thepillar](#): > > > > Demons are incorporeal entities that usually make use of the incense smoke present during the ritual to manifest. The voice would come from it and not the conjuror. > > Who told you this, and by what authority does this person speak? Ok this is now my final post in this thread because the information you’re asking for is ESOTERIC. Thus, I feel no obligation to further discuss this matter nor get into a comprehensive discourse on Ceremonial Magic. If the source I’m about cite appears to have been “pretending to posses some magical powers or knowledge”, then that’s just fine by me; I understand. Adios > [@](#): > > When, during the ceremony of Evocation, signs are apparent that the manifestation of the Spirit is taking place, when the incense smoke is being whirled towards the Triangle and assuming a tangible form, an Oration or Welcome to the Spirits should be recited. The form recommended by Barrett is… –[The Tree of Life: A study in Magic](http://books.google.mw/books?id=9LkGWW0c1HQC&pg=PA282&lpg=PA282&dq=Israel+Regardie,+spirits+manifesting+through+incense+smoke&source=bl&ots=X5aoS1A_7i&sig=KMzAovLmRkBv7Zti7lFglqy7GIA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vXt7UpvxB4KW0AWEvIGgBw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Israel%20Regardie%2C%20spirits%20manifesting%20through%20incense%20smoke&f=false), Israel Regardie ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/103 "2013-11-07T14:59:36Z")
How interesting that you should quote Regardie! He is a perfect example of the kind of “psychologizing” 20th century occultist I mentioned in an earlier post – the kind who happily dismisses all talk of “real” spirits, and argues instead for “psychological states,” as Crowley often did. As Egil Asprem pointed out in _Arguing with Angels_, Regardie published only four of the five volumes used for magical work in the Golden Dawn. Some of it, including book “H”, he considered “typically mediaeval, and definitely unsound from a spiritual viewpoint.” What’s more: > [@](#): > > The possibilities for actually conjuring spirits with the system were mainly laid out in the _Clavicula Tabularum Enochi_, which Regardie did _not_ find worthy of publication. So what was Regardie’s problem? In _How magic survived the disenchantment of the world_, Wouter Hanegraaff quotes him as saying that > [@](#): > > though the Golden Dawn rituals persistently use phraseology which implies the belief in a personal God, that usage to my mind is a _poetic_ or _dramatic_ convention. In Regardie’s view, ceremonial magic wasn’t about actually conjuring higher intelligences, but was rather, simply, a set of “technical methods” to reach the true goal, namely “exalting the individual consciousness.” In this regard, Regardie was a decidedly “modern” occultist. You seem to belong to an earlier tradition. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/104 "2013-11-07T15:15:12Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > :rolleyes: YOU are the skeptic I was referring to; YOU should try to arrange a meeting with Christoper Warnock so he can refer you to the guys who practice Goetic Ceremonial Magic; and it is YOU who should be present during the ritual in order to witness it yourself. I don’t have to do jack shit. It is _your_ claim, thus it is _your_ responsibility to provide _your_ evidence…which is the real reason you are running away from this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/105 "2013-11-07T15:41:12Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/106 "2013-11-07T16:31:51Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Yes, science has. You just refuse to believe it. Before you post another idiotic statement, you, seriously, need to read [The Demon Haunted World,](http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1383790761&sr=1-1&keywords=demon+haunted+world) by Carl Sagan, which has been suggested to you countless times before. > > Just remember, Sagan is Love. I have read most of Sagan’s books and enjoyed them. In one of them I think “cosmic” was part of the title Sagan was talking about a reincarnation event that had been documented by several people who were eye-witnesses. Sagan had this to say about the evidence. “I can’t dispute the data, but I still don’t believe it.” After reading his remark I crossed him off my list of scientists. The world is full of “paranormal” events and when so-called scientists ignore them or worse relegate them to nonsense they lose their “scientist badge” in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/107 "2013-11-07T16:34:26Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > After reading his remark I crossed him off my list of scientists. In case you were wondering, your list of scientist is not on my List of Lists of Scientists I Care About. I don’t know which case Sagan is talking about here, but I know what happens in these kinds of “cases:” they fall apart under actual scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/108 "2013-11-07T16:46:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have read most of Sagan’s books and enjoyed them. In one of them I think “cosmic” was part of the title Sagan was talking about a reincarnation event that had been documented by several people who were eye-witnesses. Sagan had this to say about the evidence. “I can’t dispute the data, but I still don’t believe it.” After reading his remark I crossed him off my list of scientists. The world is full of “paranormal” events and when so-called scientists ignore them or worse relegate them to nonsense they lose their “scientist badge” in my opinion. Could someone who has read that book please tell us what was actually in that passage? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/109 "2013-11-07T17:35:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Could someone who has read that book please tell us what was actually in that passage? I’ve not read the book, but I have encountered this case before in another debate. Sagan was referring to an account regarding a small child in India who (so it was claimed) had strikingly accurate and verified memories of a previous life. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/110 "2013-11-07T17:43:32Z")
Actually, I could just be remembering another time **lekatt** claimed the same thing. Out of curiosity, I googled some substrings of the quote - The only results Google returns for “I can’t dispute the data, but I still don’t believe it.” and substrings of that quote, turn out to have been claimed by **lekatt**. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/111 "2013-11-07T17:47:51Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Actually, I could just be remembering another time **lekatt** claimed the same thing. Out of curiosity, I googled some substrings of the quote - The only results Google returns for “I can’t dispute the data, but I still don’t believe it.” and substrings of that quote, turn out to have been claimed by **lekatt**. Then I will skip simulposting the same results. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/112 "2013-11-07T17:53:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Could someone who has read that book please tell us what was actually in that passage? > [@Mangetout](#): > > Actually, I could just be remembering another time **lekatt** claimed the same thing. Out of curiosity, I googled some substrings of the quote - The only results Google returns for “I can’t dispute the data, but I still don’t believe it.” and substrings of that quote, turn out to have been claimed by **lekatt**. That fits the pattern! Sagan did say in The Demon Haunted World that reincarnation was worthy of more experimental study, but he said in no uncertain terms that he didn’t think it’s real. > [@Sagan](#): > > At the time of writing there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: […] (3) that young children sometimes report details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any way other than reincarnation. I pick these claims not because I think they’re likely to be valid (I don’t), but as examples of contentions that might be true. The last three have some, although still dubious, experimental support. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/113 "2013-11-07T17:57:03Z")
I broadened my search a bit and found what appears to be a description of Sagan’s view in the Wikipedia article on reincarnation (subsection [reincarnation research](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation#Reincarnation_research)), which says: > [@](#): > > Carl Sagan referred to examples apparently from Stevenson’s investigations in his book The Demon-Haunted World as an example of carefully collected empirical data, though he rejected reincarnation as a parsimonious explanation for the stories. However, I can’t find anything exactly like that in Sagan’s book. I have to question the veracity of the Wikipedia claim. ETA: Just seen Marley’s post. Yeah - nothing at all like what **lekatt** claimed. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/114 "2013-11-07T18:23:24Z")
The op’s question (using bad English too by the way) was simply “Who ya gonna call”? I know who knows, because I have already called them back in 1984, 29 years ago. I witnessed a paranormal event (of which I will not go into detail in this thread about) and thought about it and thought about it and finally called the FBI. The lady on the other side of the phone carefully listened to my report and then simply said, “I am sorry sir we no longer investigate paranormal events or happenings” I seriously believe they get phone calls all he time and even more seriously believe that they have investigated super natural/paranormal events and that they have more answer’s and more information on the subject than we do. Surely someone on SD or at SD knows someone in the FBI that could weigh in with the proof that ghost, demons and evil spirits do exist and have been the center of many criminal investigations for many numbers of years? What were their findings? Perhaps the national debt could be easier to bare if the truth were told and the book royalties and film rights went to the Treasury Department … 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/115 "2013-11-07T18:25:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > In case you were wondering, your list of scientist is not on my List of Lists of Scientists I Care About. I don’t know which case Sagan is talking about here, but I know what happens in these kinds of “cases:” they fall apart under actual scrutiny. This case has been around for many years and has not fell apart yet. > **[Is Reincarnation Real? The Case of Parmod Sharma](https://www.beliefnet.com/wellness/2003/02/is-reincarnation-real-the-case-of-parmod-sharma.aspx)** > > The remarkable case of a 5-year-old boy who recalled detailed events from an Indian man's life, as documented by Ian Stevenson. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/116 "2013-11-07T18:26:01Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > The op’s question (using bad English too by the way) was simply “Who ya gonna call”? It was a reference to “Ghostbusters.” > [@](#): > > Surely someone on SD or at SD knows someone in the FBI that could weigh in with the proof that ghost, demons and evil spirits do exist and have been the center of many criminal investigations for many numbers of years? Is this a joke? There’s no way the FBI is investigating phone calls by ghosts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/117 "2013-11-07T18:28:53Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > I know who knows, because I have already called them back in 1984, 29 years ago. > > I witnessed a paranormal event ( **of which I will not go into detail in this thread about** ) and thought about it and thought about it and finally called the FBI. > > The lady on the other side of the phone carefully listened to my report and then simply said, “I am sorry sir we no longer investigate paranormal events or happenings” > > I seriously believe they get phone calls all he time and even more seriously believe that they have investigated super natural/paranormal events and that they have more answer’s and more information on the subject than we do. (bolding mine)Thank you _ever_ so much for the uncalled for unsubstantiated anecdote-we never get enough of those when we ask for actual verifiable evidence. :rolleyes: Isn’t it interesting that that you can accuse governmental agencies of not providing all the facts when you yourself withhold them from us. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/118 "2013-11-07T18:29:39Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have read most of Sagan’s books and enjoyed them. In one of them I think “cosmic” was part of the title Sagan was talking about a reincarnation event that had been documented by several people who were eye-witnesses. Sagan had this to say about the evidence. “I can’t dispute the data, but I still don’t believe it.” After reading his remark I crossed him off my list of scientists. The world is full of “paranormal” events and when so-called scientists ignore them or worse relegate them to nonsense they lose their “scientist badge” in my opinion. Whereas some people, present company included, say, “I can’t prove the claim, even though it doesn’t seem likely in any world we know about, but I will believe it anyway.” I don’t know where your Sagan quote came from (provide a reference if you can), but you deliberately ignored 99.99% of the book. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/119 "2013-11-07T18:39:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > This case has been around for many years and has not fell apart yet. > > [http://www.beliefnet.com/Wellness/2003/02/Is-Reincarnation-Real-The-Case-Of-Parmod-Sharma.aspx](http://www.beliefnet.com/Wellness/2003/02/Is-Reincarnation-Real-The-Case-Of-Parmod-Sharma.aspx) Beliefnet-the online version of a psychic fair. Have y’all ever been to a psychic fair? It consists of tables and tents filled with fools and fakers telling you the most fantastic crap for a price, and where it gets weird is when these fly-by-night card and/or glass ball readers tell you entirely different things within each other’s hearing, yet will not directly confront each other over who is right. The unwritten rule of psychic fairs and psychic websites is the same: _You support my bullshit, and I’ll support yours_. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119/120 "2013-11-07T18:48:51Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > I seriously believe they get phone calls all he time and even more seriously believe that they have investigated super natural/paranormal events and that they have more answer’s and more information on the subject than we do. What makes you believe the FBI has this information? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-ya-gonna-call-is-there-any-proof-of-ghosts-demons-or-evil-spirits/673119.md?page=7)