# Whole (Full) Nine Yards ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 5, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100 "2009-12-05T17:19:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fishinclipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b5a626/32.png) [@fishinclipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishinclipper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/1 "2009-12-05T17:19:12Z")
Nice conversation guys, all the above can be proved and unproved…the Real Deal is…no recorded evidence. And most stuff is not measured in yards, except fabric, as much as I love and admire our military, and as many sayings as they are crafty enough to coin, no recordings ever came from this one including the fact that ammo belts are in fact all different lengths…Check with Scotland…you almost had it with a “to the Hilt” comment, of course a hilt is a full gore with a sword or knife, and the nine yards was not familiar with most commoners as it refers to and still does, A KILT, not an American made but authentic, personal wrap, full body Kilt. I am positive (just as anyone else with their guess). Have a Happy Holiday 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/2 "2009-12-05T17:29:33Z")
Welcome to The Straight Dope, **fishinclipper**! For future reference(since so many of Cecil’s columns are discussed here), you should try to provide a link to the particular column you are referencing, [like so.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/504/whats-the-origin-of-the-whole-nine-yards) ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/3 "2009-12-10T18:12:49Z")
NNNNOOOOOooooooooooooooo…! ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/4 "2009-12-10T20:10:33Z")
I was going to try to post links to all the threads we’ve had about this in the past, but it’s a bit daunting. This is, shall we say, one of the Great Questions of the SDMB. Instead, I’ll just give you the most recent 5 threads. The fifth one has an excellent set of links in the second post to many more discussions here. > **[The Whole Nine Yards - from Vietnam??](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=532360)** > > We started a family discussion on the origin of the phrase “the whole nine yards” last night. My daughter asked about the phrase, though I don’t know what prompted her particular interest. I looked around on the web, and found that one theory is... > **[did the whole nine yards issue ever get resolved](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=166516)** > > the original column was right here. http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_252.html > **[Whole nine yards (again)](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=460533)** > > Looks to me like the real answer is the length of the list of possible, undocumented derivations. Maybe someone just made it out of whole cloth. > **[The Whole Nine Yards](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=425744)** > > The Whole Nine Yards Forgive me if it’s been noted elsewhere on the board, but congratulations, samclem, for antedating the Holy Grail of etymology! Language Log > **[The whole TEN yards!](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=353458)** > > I have come across this website in my effort to learn the origin of the prase “The whole nine yards.” I don’t know if this is a tired, old debate on this message board, but I do know this: I hear this phrase more and more it seems; There doesn’t... As of now, I believe the earliest reference in print of this phrase is the one discovered by our own **samclem** , which is referenced in the OP of the third link above. It is from 1964, which makes the kilt theory implausible. Sam’s discovery includes not just the phrase in print, but a definition. It is stated to be space-program slang for a line-by-line report on a project. ---
**Author:** ![Tammi\_Terrell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Tammi\_Terrell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tammi_Terrell)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/5 "2009-12-11T06:18:11Z")
Although **samclem** ’s 1964 find is still, to my mind, the most significant and useful pre-1966 antedating, it bears noting that Steven Goranson recently found a usage from the fall of 1962 that now stands as the earliest (momentarily, at least) appearance of “the whole nine yards.” In a recent entry for his blog at _The New York Times_, Fred Shapiro summarizes what we have (and haven’t) learned from these sightings from the 1960s. > **[Quotes Uncovered: Finally, the Whole Nine Yards - Freakonomics](https://freakonomics.com/2009/12/quotes-uncovered-finally-the-whole-nine-yards/)** > > Today I will give my long-awaited response to the many questions about the leading phraseological enigma of our time, namely the origin of the phrase "the whole nine yards." I am sorry to disappoint by having no definitive answer, but the reality is... Ben Zimmer’s analysis for Visual Thesaurus is also helpful. > **[Where Did We Get "The Whole Nine Yards"? : Word Routes : Thinkmap Visual...](https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/where-did-we-get-the-whole-nine-yards/)** > > Thinkmap Visual Thesaurus: Word Routes - Some new research sheds light on the mysterious origins of the phrase "the whole nine yards." ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/6 "2009-12-11T15:46:29Z")
A comment on those two articles… both authors refer to the brush salesman as using the quote as his personal obscure term. Fred Shapiro says > [@](#): > > The two earliest examples are somewhat contradictory in their import: the _Car Life_ one assumes that the reader readily understands the nine yards metaphor, while the _Michigan’s Voices_ one introduces it as a cryptic catchphrase of a brush salesman. Ben Zimmer says > [@](#): > > Who knows why a “brush salesman” would be fond of saying “the whole damn nine yards”? Both authors appear to miss something on that page. That very sentence contains _two_ instances of the phrase, “the whole nine yards”. The _second_ is the brush salesman’s specific version that inserts the word “damn”, but the _first_ use is dropped in as a common expression that everyone should know. That narrator is making the point of describing a variant he heard and found interesting, but he does it after using the phrase conventionally. There is no conflict between the _Car Life_ and _Michigan’s Voices_ uses, and there is no reason to think that a brush salesman is the origin of the quote. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/7 "2009-12-11T15:59:30Z")
I went through the rest of Fred Shapiro’s quote origins columns. Some of them were fun, but should a friend take him aside as tell him to read the older columns before he posts a new one? An amazing and frankly embarrassing number of questions are simply repeated and reanswered. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/8 "2009-12-12T01:22:20Z")
> [@Tammi\_Terrell](#): > > Although **samclem** ’s 1964 find is still, to my mind, the most significant and useful pre-1966 antedating, it bears noting that Steven Goranson recently found a usage from the fall of 1962 that now stands as the earliest (momentarily, at least) appearance of “the whole nine yards.” In a recent entry for his blog at _The New York Times_, Fred Shapiro summarizes what we have (and haven’t) learned from these sightings from the 1960s. What **Tammi** doesn’t tell you is that she was the first to beat my lucky 1964 find, by doing some hard work(and follow-up work] to take it back to 1962. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/9 "2009-12-12T05:03:56Z")
And yet, the search must go earlier. You guys love this, don’t you? I had no idea Lexis/Nexis had an office a mere 18.5 miles from my home. And a main office slightly further, but with expensive parking. ---
**Author:** ![Tammi\_Terrell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Tammi\_Terrell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tammi_Terrell)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/10 "2009-12-12T22:41:36Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > What **Tammi** doesn’t tell you is that she was the first to beat my lucky 1964 find, by doing some hard work(and follow-up work] to take it back to 1962. Nah, **samclem** , my find is attributable to good timing: I was lucky enough to stumble upon that sighting in Google Books before you and Goranson found it. And the only hard work (on my part) involved enlisting the help of a librarian to track down the relevant issue of _Car Life_. (“Follow-up work” entailed paying the $5 interlibrary loan fee.) ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/11 "2009-12-13T16:08:12Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Both authors appear to miss something on that page. That very sentence contains _two_ instances of the phrase, “the whole nine yards”. The _second_ is the brush salesman’s specific version that inserts the word “damn”, but the _first_ use is dropped in as a common expression that everyone should know. That narrator is making the point of describing a variant he heard and found interesting, but he does it after using the phrase conventionally. The stream-of-consciousness style makes this hard to say conclusively. If it was as you describe, one would expect the word “or” in there somewhere - “the whole nine yards, or, as the Fuller Brush salesman was fond of saying, the whole damn nine yards.” Now, it could be that the author left out the “or”, and given the writing style, that’s distinctly possible. But neither is the other analysis obviously incorrect – the “as the salesman says” could just be a parenthetical inserted into his full saying: “the whole nine yards, the whole damn nine yards”. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that you’re not indisputably right. =) Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/12 "2009-12-13T16:27:12Z")
No one, on this Board, is EVER indisputably right. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![palindromemordnilap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/db5fbb/32.png) [@palindromemordnilap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palindromemordnilap)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/13 "2009-12-14T22:34:03Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > No one, on this Board, is EVER indisputably right. 😃 This is unarguably true. Which makes it demonstrably false. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/14 "2009-12-14T22:56:22Z")
[The exception that proves the rule](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/731/whats-the-meaning-of-the-expression-thats-the-exception-that-proves-the-rule). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisShotJFK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e79b87/32.png) [@ElvisShotJFK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisShotJFK)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/15 "2009-12-15T03:33:15Z")
A belt of fifty caliber machine gun ammunition is twenty-seven feet long. In a 1941 interview with Life Magazine, Flying Tiger ace Tex Hill, in describing how he shot down a japanese aircraft, stated, “I gave him the whole damn nine yards.” The interview was printed and the quote was repeated so often that a mere 69 years later people have forgotten where it came from. Etymology has long been a hobby of mine and I have had the good fortune to have met a couple of the original Flying Tigers - a rare combination that made me simply HAVE TO respond to this thread! ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/16 "2009-12-15T04:01:53Z")
> [@ElvisShotJFK](#): > > In a 1941 interview with Life Magazine, Flying Tiger ace Tex Hill, in describing how he shot down a japanese aircraft, stated, “I gave him the whole damn nine yards.” Do you have some documentation for that? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/17 "2009-12-15T04:26:49Z")
> [@ElvisShotJFK](#): > > A belt of fifty caliber machine gun ammunition is twenty-seven feet long. I don’t think anyone has ever produced a milspec to support this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/18 "2009-12-15T06:00:40Z")
> [@ElvisShotJFK](#): > > A belt of fifty caliber machine gun ammunition is twenty-seven feet long. > > In a 1941 interview with Life Magazine, Flying Tiger ace Tex Hill, in describing how he shot down a japanese aircraft, stated, “I gave him the whole damn nine yards.” > > The interview was printed and the quote was repeated so often that a mere 69 years later people have forgotten where it came from. > > Etymology has long been a hobby of mine and I have had the good fortune to have met a couple of the original Flying Tigers - a rare combination that made me simply HAVE TO respond to this thread! From the total negativity of my Google searches, not only did no such quote ever appear in Life magazine by anyone, let alone Tex Hill, but far from being “repeated so often” you are the first person in all of humanity to suggest it. Nothing leads to any previous association of Tex Hill being quoted in Life magazine, Tex Hill and the whole nine yards, or Life magazine and the whole nine yards. Life did do several stories on the Flying Tigers, but the earliest appears to be in the March 30, 1942 issue. You can call up that issue through Google Books. Neither the phrase “whole nine years” nor anything conceivably mistakable for it appears. Pictures show David Lee “Tex” Hill, but he is given no lines and no quotes. There is nothing on ammo belts. Nobody is allowed to tell stories about shooting down Japanese. Teddy White has a report accompanying the Flying Tigers on a battle mission in the Nov. 9, 1942 issue. If there ever was a spot for a whole nine yards quote, this is it. But it ain’t. Tex Hill is mentioned and again gets no words attributed to him. A short article about Flying Tigers Airways appeared in the Mar 11, 1946 issue. It looked at some vets who were putting a civilian company together. Nothing useful for our purposes appears. And that’s it, except for a letter to editor and a short paragraph length mention here and there. Nothing, nothing, and nothing. I tried looking for it in other contemporary magazines by a variety of search terms. More nothing. Sounds to me like standard folk etymology with a source that before the internet would be hard to track down. I’m not saying it’s impossible. Maybe that issue isn’t in the Google database or didn’t get scanned properly. But then it would be up to you to find it and show us the money. ---
**Author:** ![Negative\_Lite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Negative\_Lite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Negative_Lite)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/19 "2009-12-15T12:29:09Z")
Didn’t Barry Popik solve this one? That it was the punchline to a dirty joke or baudy poem popular among Air Force service men in the 50s concerning a Scotsmen and the size of his scarf-slash-endowment? Here’s the email he posted on his website: > [@](#): > > (May 13, 2005 e-mail response from Richard Stratton) > Barry, > > The most unique request I have received since 1973! > > Etymology of “whole nine yards”? > > 1. Where first heard? > Navy School of Preflight in July 1955 at the ACRAAC (Aviation Cadet Recreation and Athletic Club - a base beer hall; NavCad’s could not use O Club). Home of salacious & scatological songs, shaggy dog stories and off beat humor. > 2. What meaning then? > Referred to the mythical Andy McTavish’s private member and the scarf knitted by him for the birthday of his affianced, Mary Margaret MacMuff. > 3. Explained in detail? > Yes, in great detail. One of a series of stories and songs enshrining the courtship of Andy and Mary Margaret. > 4. US or VN? > United States - NAS Pensacola FL > 5. Aviator usage in 1973? > The “whole nine yards” joined “the whole kit and caboodle” as meaning “all inclusive”, “containing each and every element” and “a whole without any exceptions”. It had lost all sexual reference or innuendo. > > Attached for your information. > > Dick And the joke itself: > [@](#): > > The Continuing Saga of the Courtship > of > Andrew MacTavish and Mary Margaret MacDuff > > A brief summary missing, a Scottish burr and tonal inflections. > [To be read in the locker room after consuming a pint of Scotch or a > six-pack of beer.] > > Andy resolved to knit a scarf for his beloved Margaret Mary as a birthday present. As usual in his enthusiasm he kept on knitting and knitting until the scarf extended some nine yards of extremely florid colors and ugly pattern. However, it was a measure of his love for Margaret Mary. > > On Saturday night, Andy went out drinking with the boys, wearing his kilt and having Margaret Mary’s gift wrapped around his neck. Naturally his shipmates in the course of the evening made great fun of the ugly accoutrement. > > Well after midnight and well into his cups, Andy was having second > thoughts about the present he had lavished so much attention upon. He decided that the only way to resolve his doubts was to show the scarf to Margaret Mary, without indicating that it was her present, and get a sense of her approval and delight. > > So, drunk as a skunk, Andy took off over hill and dale, through the heath and heather and stumbling across stone walls and bushy obstacles. In his enthusiasm and rising ardour at the thought of seeing Margaret Mary and that in her night clothes, he didn’t realize that he had not only lost the scarf but also his kilt. > > Sexually stimulated, buck-naked from the waist down (answering the question as to what a Scotsman wears under his kilts), and with a massive erection, Andy starts throwing stones at Margaret Mary’s second story bedroom window. After displacing about a yard of gravel, Margaret Mary sleepily opens the window and gazes with amazement at her betrothed in all his glory. > > Andy, still well out of it, shouts: “Margaret Mary, I have made this, > wrapped around my neck, just for you? I am going to give it to you on your birthday. How do you like it?” > > Margaret Mary, forever the shy maiden, looks with amazement at her beloved and becomes fixated on his lower extremity; being the first time she has ever seen such a thing. She is at a loss for words. > > Andy again shouts: “Well girl, how do you like it?” > > Nonplused, staring at his impressively engorged member she stuttered out: > “Just fine, Andy dear, just fine. It is magnificent.” > > Andy, still seeking more praise for the results of his knitting industry expended on the missing scarf and conscious of the ridicule of his friends asked: “The whole nine yards?” I find the dirty joke explanation thoroughly convincing because it explains how the phrase could get so widely disseminated while leaving hardly a trace of contemporary written attestations. Sure, maybe there’s still more to the story. Perhaps the McTavish joke was playing on a pre-existing “whole nine yards” phrase and merely presenting it in a new comical situation. Or maybe Stratton’s memory is wrong and the McTavish joke came about much later, after the “whole nine yards” phrase was already getting traction. Still, there seems to be enough here to make it the default hypothesis, for now. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100/20 "2009-12-15T13:05:40Z")
I find the joke explanation implausible, simply because jokes are mutable. Details such as length change with every telling unless they are integral to the humour. So, for example, a joke that relies on a pun between “sex” and “six” will retain that specific number. In sharp contrast, the joke about a [tiny pianist](http://www.google.co.in/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=%22inch+pianist%22&meta=&btnG=Google+Search) commonly involves everything from 8 inches to 14 inches. That’s because the length in that joke, and the scarf joke, aren’t really important. Any number that implies a larger than usual phallus works equally. So at every re-telling the person relating the joke is going to vary the number. Unless “the whole nine yards” already had some significance, the next teller would be prone to changing it to “the whole 8 yards” or even “the whole 20 feet”. And once that happens the “whole nine yards” ceases to be the punchline. I’ll be more prone to believing it if you can name single joke, dirty or otherwise, where the number has remained immutable over multiple tellings when that specific number wasn’t integral to the humour. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whole-full-nine-yards/520100.md?page=2)