# Whom killed grammar? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 4, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677 "2012-09-04T20:17:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/61 "2012-09-08T07:29:14Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > To write well, and in a manner not subject to misinterpretation, requires that certain rules be followed, like it or not. . However, English is not French. There are not “rules”. Just guidelines, and there are a number of those, and they differ- mostly in small details, true. Generally when someone complains about the stupidity of other people’s grammar, it _is_ when those “stupid people” dont follow the “rules”- those 'rules" being just the ones that the complainer knows and chooses to follow. It then follows that if the complainer doesnt know or chooses not to follow a certain “rule” then it is because _that_ rule is “unimportant”. But if someone else doesnt know or chooses not to follow a certain “rule”, then that person is stupid. It is pure elitism. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/62 "2012-09-08T12:03:09Z")
_Whom killed grammar?_ In the title, “whom” is the subject, and “grammar” is the object. Therefore, a grammatically correct title would either read, “Who killed grammar?” or “Grammar was killed by whom?” No? > **[Who vs. Whom | Grammar Rules](https://www.grammarbook.com/grammar/whoVwhom.asp)** > > Who vs Whom. Use this they/them method to decide whether who or whom is correct. [http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/who-versus-whom.aspx](http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/who-versus-whom.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/63 "2012-09-08T12:22:23Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > _Whom killed grammar?_ > > In the title, “whom” is the subject, and “grammar” is the object. Therefore, a grammatically correct title would either read, “Who killed grammar?” or “Grammar was killed by whom?” > > No? > > [Who vs. Whom | Grammar Rules and Examples](http://www.grammarbook.com/grammar/whoVwhom.asp) > [http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/who-versus-whom.aspx](http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/who-versus-whom.aspx) Ya think? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/64 "2012-09-08T13:29:32Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > But a lot of those carry necessary information. Tengo un gato en mis pantalones and Tienes un gato en mis pantalones mean very different things. Me and Jim went to the park carries just as much info as Jim and I so there’s no pressure on speakers to speak it “correctly”. In both cases and if the cat isn’t patchwork, I hope nobody is wearing the trousers! (The two sentences are “I have a cat in/on my trousers” and “You have a cat in/on my trousers”). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/65 "2012-09-08T13:39:35Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I’m not sure the difference can be explained by greater emphasis on grammar in schools. Though it’s been a long time, I’m fairly certain we had similar lessons and drills in the fifth grade, and even later, when I was in school. And I did mention the general culture, which will also vary by social strata etc. It’s not only the school, but yes, the schooling is very different: look for threads containing “tree analysis”. A tool I can still use 24 years after having had to use it in class is completely unknown to Americans; the grammatical analysis tools commonly used in the US were barely brushed over and aside in my classes (we used them once, said “this is a piece of shit since it shatters the sentence” and moved on to trees). The tools which have been described here as commonly used in the US take any sentence and reorder it into a list of words from which it’s impossible to rebuild the original; those we used don’t move a letter. We learned to recognize the subject whether it was ellided, at the beginning, after the verb or hidden behind one of the complements; for Americans, it is only too common to reach college unable to consciously write a sentence in the passive voice, much less a lab report. I taught 2xx-level college courses for a total of 10 semesters: the students who knew what the passive voice is and could use it seamlessly were an absurd minority; organic chemistry lab shouldn’t have to dedicate half an hour each semester to an explanation of the passive voice! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/66 "2012-09-08T13:46:06Z")
\*Who’s whom? Whom’s dead, baby.\* ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/67 "2012-09-08T16:01:35Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Ya think? Was I whooshed? DAMMIT! ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/68 "2012-09-09T04:09:30Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Grammar is descriptive, not prescriptive. That’s kind of a meaningless statement–sort of like saying, “Art is representational, not abstract.” ---
**Author:** ![oreally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ab992/32.png) [@oreally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oreally)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/69 "2012-09-09T04:34:51Z")
If the worst thing we had to worry about was the gradual demise of the word “whom,” we’d have little to complain about. Thas what I’m talkin’ bout. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/70 "2012-09-09T06:35:05Z")
It is us. Us shot the grammar, but we did not shoot the syntact’ly. Us shot the grammar, but we did not shoot the syntact’ly. All around in ours mass noun They’re trying to make we frown. They say they want we to speak correctly For the killing of a syntact’ly, For the life of a syntact’ly. But us say: Us shot the grammar, but us swear it was in past tense. Us shot the grammar, and they say it is a future perfect tense. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/71 "2012-09-09T12:26:19Z")
Purty good[book review/article](http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1973/article_detail.asp) on the subject by Joseph Epstein, just published. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/72 "2012-09-09T22:37:01Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > That’s kind of a meaningless statement–sort of like saying, “Art is representational, not abstract.” No, it isn’t meaningless. You may disagree with it, which would make you wrong, but it isn’t meaningless. It means that grammar, as an actual academic discipline as opposed to a random collection of pet peeves, is founded upon observation. It derives data from observing how people actually communicate, not inventing arbitrary rules and whining when nobody cares what some badly-educated pseudo-grammarian thinks about how they communicate. The ‘random collection of pet peeves’ is properly called ‘style’, and, as style is a function of fashion, it is entirely prescriptive and prone to changing with the breeze. Unless you think a wooden building cannot _possibly_ be dilapidated. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/73 "2012-09-10T04:26:44Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Grammar is descriptive, not prescriptive. > > I’m a judgmental descriptivist. What a prescriptivist might call “bad grammar”, I call “the way a stupid person talks”. I’m sure that, to many people who write professionally for large organizations, e.g. journalists and newswriters, grammar is highly prescriptive. It’s a matter of degree. At a certain point questions of grammar are hard to separate from questions of usage and vocabulary; to facilitate communication we all have to agree on what the overwhelming majority words in the language are “supposed” to mean. It can be the same with grammar; many of us can probably go for weeks without ever using the pluperfect, but it’s nice to be able to use it as needed to avoid ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/74 "2012-09-11T19:21:20Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Having read a lot of history, I’m not sure that the _average_ person’s knowledge of grammar is worse than it was, say, 100 years ago, when many people didn’t even finish high school. > > What _does_ amaze me is how many “educated” people write badly, and then go on the defensive when you point it out to them. > > To write well, and in a manner not subject to misinterpretation, requires that certain rules be followed, like it or not. And anyone with a reasonably good grasp of the language should be able to tell good writing from bad. > > Some things can be overlooked as matters of style, but when a college graduate doesn’t know the difference between “your” and “you’re,” that’s just pathetic. > > This can be attributed partly to the influence of television, I suppose, but I’ve never felt that watching the tube had any great effect on my English. Maybe it depends on what you watch. > > Textbooks at all levels have been getting dumber with each passing decade, which is reprehensible. A college education is now the equivalent of what a high school education used to be. Those who go beyond either do so largely on their own initiative. > > Electronic communications (chat rooms and the like) have done a lot to degrade language skills, partly because of the company that’s kept in them. You don’t have to write effectively to hobnob with people who are on your level. > > Do I talk the same way I write? A lot of the time, yes. Maybe not when I talk to my dog and cat, but almost always with my daughter, students, and colleagues. > > If you don’t already know, I’ve worked in three areas that require (or ought to require) above-average language skills: publishing, broadcasting, and education. Anyone else find it funny that this post doesn’t use paragraphs “correctly”? ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/75 "2012-09-11T19:29:03Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Was I whooshed? DAMMIT! It was more of a whoomsh. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677/76 "2012-09-11T19:34:59Z")
> [@oreally](#): > > I think the primary culprits are technology and the disturbing trend or fad of talking like a moron, which is apparently “hip” and all the rage. WAG about where it started? The 60s (fount of all evil in modern times, LOL). Not only did sloppy-talkin’ youth get a major boost-up in society, so did women. Wait, you say - women tend to use better grammar, no? Yes, but when too many of them got into the workforce, they turned professions like editing and copyediting into “women’s jobs” - ie: devalued work. A few decades of that and caring about good English too became devalued, taking on a tinge of the effete and maybe even effeminate. WAG, like I said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-killed-grammar/633677.md?page=3)