# Whom would the UN have supported during the American Civil War? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512 "2011-03-21T20:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/21 "2011-03-22T05:02:00Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Probably, as well as for other strategic reasons (CSA was a more important trade partner, so ending the war and therefore the blockade was good business). People often forget (or didn’t know) that England and France actually had more trade with the north than the south (even leaving aside the blockade). King Corn was bigger than King Cotton. So while London and Paris wanted to reopen trade with the south, it did not want to have its trade with the north closed. So their diplomatic policy was more a matter of trying to work with both sides rather than choosing one. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/22 "2011-03-22T05:05:44Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I can’t find the Alfred Mahan quote, but it more or less goes, “The United States had the misfortune to declare war on Great Britain just before Napoleon abdicated, and had to settle for the best terms it could find.” > 🙂 The United States declared war on Great Britain three years before Napoleon abdicated. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/23 "2011-03-22T05:52:07Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Though they did in fact stay neutral, they came tolerably close to recognizing the CSA and intervening. France, in fact, \*wanted \*to intervene, but was unwilling to do so without the English, who were more reticent. This history buff would love a cite. ETA…about the French. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/24 "2011-03-22T06:57:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We know what the 2 great powers did (they stayed neutral), so I don’t see how it would have played out any differently if there was some council of other powers involved. Neutral is not the right term. Refusing to recognize the CSA was a decidedly hostile position. If England and France had not traded extensively with the north OR the south, that would’ve been a neutral position. In reality, maintaining normal relations with the USA was absolutely a show of support, and the north would have been royally screwed without trade from Europe, much as the South turned out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/25 "2011-03-22T07:46:54Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > This history buff would love a cite. > > ETA…about the French. “Napoleon III of France leaned toward intervention, but was unwilling to take any action without British cooperation.” James M. McPherson, _Battle Cry of Freedom_ p. 384 ---
**Author:** ![djinteractive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@djinteractive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/djinteractive)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/26 "2011-03-22T10:26:10Z")
It isn’t about specifically England and their commonwealths and France For example there were other powers too. We have 15 countries on the security council. Who would they be at that time. I assume the Qing Dynasty and Russian Empire even during their times must have been big enough to be on the security council. Would all these diverse groups of people been able to come up with some kind or consensus to intervene in the US Civil War had they been able to. Like we (the western powers) are imposing with UN resolution 1973 (the new no-fly zone one). So basically if we took the 6 for the security council (we have added a lot of counties in the 20th century) of the biggest not just France and GB+Commonwealths and 4 of the other powers. Based on their 19th century political ideology who would the UN side with. The rebels (Grey) or the state that is sending in the troops (Blue). I mean basically Libya is in Civil War right now as far as I am concerned. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/27 "2011-03-22T11:13:06Z")
Since the UN is located in New York, it would have been very difficult to support the South. Thank you, I’ll be here all week. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/28 "2011-03-22T11:57:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The United States declared war on Great Britain three years before Napoleon abdicated. I’d best find and reread the quote. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/29 "2011-03-22T13:31:35Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > Well this was a smallish speck that had already beat Great Britain at war twice. 🙂 Geez, didn’t know I would get that much flak. I will agree that part of it was luck. I think it was in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ that they decided one of the key parts of a successful rebellion was timing. Anyway, how has the UN handled civil wars in the past? With what’s going on in Libya the “crimes against humanity” are against their own citizens. Most of the major powers had had slavery at some point; would they be quick to jump in due to that fact? If they hadn’t already been after the US for having slavery, I think they would have trouble justifying getting involved now. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/30 "2011-03-22T13:48:08Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Probably, as well as for other strategic reasons (CSA was a more important trade partner, so ending the war and therefore the blockade was good business). In the end, though, they needed Northern grain more than Southern cotton. And IIRC, Egypt and India had unusually good cotton crops during the war, which took a lot of pressure off France and England. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/31 "2011-03-22T19:11:34Z")
In today’s climate the UN would almost surely side with the North; there is no way they would give legitimacy to a political system based largely on slavery. How much UN support did South Africa receive when it still had apartheid? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/32 "2011-03-22T19:32:28Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > In the end, though, they needed Northern grain more than Southern cotton. And IIRC, Egypt and India had unusually good cotton crops during the war, which took a lot of pressure off France and England. There had also been bumper crops in the late fifties which meant that most textile merchants had warehouses full of cotton. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/33 "2011-03-22T20:00:01Z")
None of which, of course, stopped the Southern states from _thinking_ that Europe would side with them for the cotton, which was one of the things that emboldened them to secede in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512/34 "2011-03-23T14:21:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > None of which, of course, stopped the Southern states from _thinking_ that Europe would side with them for the cotton, which was one of the things that emboldened them to secede in the first place. Good call. Relying on someone to back you up isn’t the best strategy. Would the UN have cared if the CSA went crying to them saying “We decided to drop out of the US, can you give us some help?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whom-would-the-un-have-supported-during-the-american-civil-war/575512.md?page=1)