# Whoopsie! 190,000 firearms U.S. gave Iraq security forces are missing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625 "2007-08-06T14:41:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/1 "2007-08-06T14:41:22Z")
Story [here:](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/05/AR2007080501299.html?hpid=topnews) > [@](#): > > The Pentagon has lost track of about 190,000 AK-47 assault rifles and pistols given to Iraqi security forces in 2004 and 2005, according to a new government report, raising fears that some of those weapons have fallen into the hands of insurgents fighting U.S. forces in Iraq. > > The author of the report from the Government Accountability Office says U.S. military officials do not know what happened to 30 percent of the weapons the United States distributed to Iraqi forces from 2004 through early this year as part of an effort to train and equip the troops. The highest previous estimate of unaccounted-for weapons was 14,000, in a report issued last year by the inspector general for Iraq reconstruction. _sigh_ Well, we all lose track of things. I could understand, a little, when a couple hundred tons of cash shipped to Iraq went missing; currency bills are such small, flimsy, easy-to-lose things. But assault rifles?! In an insurgency zone?! ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/2 "2007-08-06T14:46:48Z")
Well that’s about less then 0.0019% of total AK’s built, but yeah, that isn’t good. Pretty darn sloppy as usual. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/3 "2007-08-06T14:49:39Z")
Yeah, but it’s **thirty percent of the weapons the US has distributed in Iraq**. Can you say “clusterfuck,” children? I knew you could. Oh, how I wish the Dems had the balls to put this occupation to an end or fight it properly. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/4 "2007-08-06T14:54:30Z")
I particularly liked this quote - one that our few remaining kool-aid drinkers should remember next time they pretend to believe the Iraq Army is a loyal, non-sectarian force. > [@](#): > > One senior Pentagon official acknowledged that some of the weapons probably are being used against U.S. forces. He cited the Iraqi brigade created at Fallujah that quickly dissolved in September 2004 and turned its weapons against the Americans. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/5 "2007-08-06T16:54:08Z")
The United States is supplying weapons and money to the Iraqi insurgency. Obviously, we must bomb and invade the United States. You’re either with us or against us. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/6 "2007-08-06T16:59:25Z")
It’s a public service thing. AK’s are largely crap and the 47’s are way out of date anyway. I figured that if I take all the 47’s in the world and melt 'em down, eventually people will start using the AK-74, if not something nicer. Sorry it’s so upsetting, but something _had_ to be done. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/7 "2007-08-07T03:06:03Z")
Had this happened under Clinton, it would have been the 1000th reason given by Republicans for his impeachment. However, GW is infallible, so he gets a pass. When Congress attempts to investigate this, the Bush apologists (i.e., Republicans) in Congress will go into overdrive with excusesas to why it just isn’t Bush’s fault (and BTW, under Clinton we lost 6 rifles in Kosovo, and where was the outrage then?) ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/8 "2007-08-07T03:33:55Z")
[QUOTE=Frostillicus] However, GW is infallible, so he gets a pass. [/QUOTE] Well, no. You can’t lay this directly at W’s feet. He didn’t hand out a couple hundred thousand assault rifles and neglect to get a hand receipt. While this is bad news it is not as bad news as demobilizing a half million soldiers, militia and police and para-police who took off with their weapons and raided unguarded ammo dumps to top off their basic load of bullets and explosives. That is precisely what Paul Bremer’s outfit did. You can’t expect the President to spend his time attending to that sort of detail and micro-managing arms rooms half a world away. You would think, however, that the President would see to it that the heads would roll for this level of negligence. Seen any heads bouncing down Pennsylvania Avenue or along the Arlington Bridge? ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/9 "2007-08-07T04:56:36Z")
The fault here needs to rest squarely on the shoulders of the Iraqi defense force. Our military can only say “don’t lose these weapons” so many times. the problem IMO is that we decimated the original (apparently corrupt) Iraqi army, and they were replaced by (apparently equally corrupt) “Iraqi defense force”, or Army, or whatever. Say what you want about the war, the invasion, Saddam’s culpability, the presence of Al Qaedea in Iraq, democracy, blah, blah, blah. The bottom line is, the US destroyed the Iraqi military (at least in the battle sense), decapitated the Dictatorship, and tried to run out most of the corrupt lawmakers, generals, scientists and what have you. Turns out that when you remove a system from a country, no matter how flawed and corrupt, it’s not easy to get things working under a new political ideal. Democracy was not embraced immediately? Heathens! Sunnis and Shiites? Get along assholes. You guys wanna keep blowin’ shit up? Fine. We’ll send in more troops and kick more ass. That’ll make your government, economy, social infrastructure, and religious tension even out. Bullets. We have lots of 'em. I love that the US is going to stay there until things stabilize. Because that is _sure_ to happen, eventually, maybe. Maybe w’s daddy didn’t invade for a reason. Perhaps he thought that an evil dictator in place was better than a protracted war with that country, and a total inability to get them on their own feet. Well, at least we didn’t sell our “enemies” the weapons this time. Wait…what? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/10 "2007-08-07T18:24:02Z")
[QUOTE=Frostillicus] Had this happened under Clinton, it would have been the 1000th reason given by Republicans for his impeachment. However, GW is infallible, so he gets a pass. When Congress attempts to investigate this, the Bush apologists (i.e., Republicans) in Congress will go into overdrive with excusesas to why it just isn’t Bush’s fault (and BTW, under Clinton we lost 6 rifles in Kosovo, and where was the outrage then?) [/QUOTE] Actually, from the article I read about this, we did hand out guns in Bosnia, and did lose about 8 of them - or some very small percentage. The excuse for this fiasco I read was that the paperwork to track this took too long, and that even today the only data they have on the guns is a big wide spreadsheet. But, I bet the people in charge had the right position on abortion, so it’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/11 "2007-08-07T18:27:32Z")
Who could possibly have guessed that an army is not a tool for building a nation? Tris ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/12 "2007-08-07T18:53:39Z")
All I know is I don’t want to hear anymore about the missing monitor from my equipment account. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2007, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/13 "2007-08-08T03:31:09Z")
[QUOTE=Spavined Gelding] Well, no. You can’t lay this directly at W’s feet. He didn’t hand out a couple hundred thousand assault rifles and neglect to get a hand receipt. While this is bad news it is not as bad news as demobilizing a half million soldiers, militia and police and para-police who took off with their weapons and raided unguarded ammo dumps to top off their basic load of bullets and explosives. That is precisely what Paul Bremer’s outfit did. You can’t expect the President to spend his time attending to that sort of detail and micro-managing arms rooms half a world away. You would think, however, that the President would see to it that the heads would roll for this level of negligence. Seen any heads bouncing down Pennsylvania Avenue or along the Arlington Bridge? [/QUOTE] I blame Bush because, as Wesley Clark said last night on Countdown, the US military performed this exact task perfectly in Bosnia in the late 1990s. But since that was done under Clinton’s watch, the Bush White House purposely refused to use the same methods and personnel to carry out this task in Iraq. Ergo, clusterfuck. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2007, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/14 "2007-08-08T10:49:55Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] It’s a public service thing. AK’s are largely crap and the 47’s are way out of date anyway. I figured that if I take all the 47’s in the world and melt 'em down, eventually people will start using the **AK-74** , if not something nicer. Sorry it’s so upsetting, but something _had_ to be done. [/QUOTE] My bolding. I’m just dusting off some long term military memory here, the AK 74 is the 7,62mm version of the AK 47, right? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2007, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/15 "2007-08-08T11:04:53Z")
[QUOTE=Mellivora capensis] My bolding. I’m just dusting off some long term military memory here, the AK 74 is the 7,62mm version of the AK 47, right? [/QUOTE] No, that’s still an AK 47. This is a whole new gun, or at least an upgrade. Different bullets, lighter weight Russian design. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2007, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/16 "2007-08-08T11:59:42Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] No, that’s still an AK 47. This is a whole new gun, or at least an upgrade. Different bullets, lighter weight Russian design. [/QUOTE] Apologies, you’re right, I had my ballistics switched round. AK47 = 7,62mm, AK74 = 5,45mm. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2007, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/17 "2007-08-08T12:06:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Story [here:](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/05/AR2007080501299.html?hpid=topnews) _sigh_ Well, we all lose track of things. I could understand, a little, when a couple hundred tons of cash shipped to Iraq went missing; currency bills are such small, flimsy, easy-to-lose things. But assault rifles?! In an insurgency zone?! [/QUOTE] Last I checked Iraq isn’t part of the United States nor are the Iraqi Security Forces part of the U.S. Armed Forces. How exactly are we supposed to control what, precisely, they do with assault rifles? Plus, it’s not exactly like the various groups fighting in Iraq are hard up for assault rifles, that is one of their cheapest and most easily obtained type of weaponry. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2007, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/18 "2007-08-08T12:09:02Z")
[QUOTE=Frostillicus] I blame Bush because, as Wesley Clark said last night on Countdown, the US military performed this exact task perfectly in Bosnia in the late 1990s. But since that was done under Clinton’s watch, the Bush White House purposely refused to use the same methods and personnel to carry out this task in Iraq. Ergo, clusterfuck. [/QUOTE] Yeah, Wesley Clark, there’s an unbiased source. Last I checked we _did not_ in fact rebuild a country’s military from the ground up in Bosnia. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2007, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/19 "2007-08-08T12:46:25Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Last I checked Iraq isn’t part of the United States nor are the Iraqi Security Forces part of the U.S. Armed Forces. [/QUOTE] Yeah. I mean, it’s just ridiculous expecting the USA to be somehow held accountable for what goes on in Iraq. Crazy talk! You might as well start blaming George Bush himself, and I think we can all agree that would be a nonsense. A _nonsense_, I say. Thank you, **Martin Hyde** , for injecting some much needed sanity into this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2007, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625/20 "2007-08-08T13:09:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] _sigh_ Well, we all lose track of things. I could understand, a little, when a couple hundred tons of cash shipped to Iraq went missing; currency bills are such small, flimsy, easy-to-lose things. But assault rifles?! In an insurgency zone?! [/QUOTE] Well, I hope they at least made sure to give them a firearms safety course. Then it’ll all be good. -Joe [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whoopsie-190-000-firearms-u-s-gave-iraq-security-forces-are-missing/414625.md?page=2)