# Whopper Loans **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 4, 2019, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011 "2019-06-04T13:25:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/21 "2019-06-04T17:04:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The problem was that he mistakenly thought that a graduate degree _wasn’t_ free. What’s normal is for a school to pay its grad students tuition and a small stipend. But he didn’t know that, and so he got suckered. That, too. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/22 "2019-06-04T19:19:34Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The math was clear, and I’m good at math. But I was balancing at against my future salary, which was a cipher. I thought I could afford it. I was wrong. (Well, not totally wrong: I’ve managed, but it’s had a major dampening effect on my quality of life.) This is the crux of the issue, I think. Kids are told, basically, if you don’t go to college you’ll spend the rest of your life working at Burger King or some similar menial job. To pay for college, you’ll need to take out a loan. But don’t worry, once you have your degree you’ll you’ll be able to get a well paying job and you’ll be able to afford to pay back that loan. But especially for those who graduated in the middle of the recession, then discovered that those high paying jobs aren’t as common as they were led to believe. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/23 "2019-06-04T19:32:00Z")
The greater number of people there are holding higher qualifications the lower the price of each job in the labour market that requires such a qualification. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/24 "2019-06-04T19:48:15Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The question is, how long is it reasonable to pay for that? Yes, I bear the lion’s share of the responsibilty for my debt. That’s why I keep paying it. But there is also some institutional and systemic responsibility, and I’m paying for that, too. That is not fair. I mean, life isn’t fair, I know that, but going forward, shouldn’t we try to do better? Thanks for posting that information. And I agree, we should be trying to do better. The 90s were definitely different than today. The whole world’s compendium of information is in everyone’s hand. I don’t know that “I didn’t know” is a reasonable excuse anymore. If it helps, I find a lot of young people today who still don’t ask any questions about situations where they don’t have any information 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![neutro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@neutro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/25 "2019-06-04T19:57:11Z")
This is a government created problem. Guaranteed loans and loans you can’t bankrupt are a horrible idea. We now have a situation where many people can get loaned money that shouldn’t get loaned money. Dr. Drake is a classic example where they loaned someone too much because they don’t care about your ability to pay it back, after all it’s guaranteed. Giving young adults access to this kind of money is insanity and wouldn’t happen without the government interference in the market. This makes school more expensive for everyone involved because now schools don’t have to compete, almost any student can get the loans they need to pay the tuiton. My daughter is heading off to college this fall so this hits pretty close to home. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/26 "2019-06-04T20:07:15Z")
> [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > What I find “very, brutally sad” and even nakedly, unfathomably shocking and savagely abhorrent is that some seem to think that McDonalds french fries are better than Burger King’s. Say what you will about McDonald’s fries (I prefer Wendy’s), at least they don’t taste like someone added detergent to the fry oil. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/27 "2019-06-04T20:11:52Z")
Detergent? Luxury! I’d kill for some BK _onion rings_ that tasted like oil and detergent instead of cardboard! ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/28 "2019-06-04T20:13:37Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > I thought this would be about gladly paying Tuesday for a hamburger today… And I just realized… today is Tuesday. So yeah, that works. Pay today for a hamburger today. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/29 "2019-06-04T20:16:04Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > This makes school more expensive for everyone involved because now schools don’t have to compete, almost any student can get the loans they need to pay the tuiton. Which brings to my mind the latest post on the [“Confessions of a Community College Dean”](https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/comparison-ads) blog: > [@](#): > > I had a conversation on Monday with someone on campus about reaching out to some of the populations that for-profit schools tend to target. I … noted how much lower our [community college] tuition is – even for online courses – than the major for-profits with whom we compete. > > My interlocutor, who shares my concerns, didn’t know that. As she put it, she assumed the for-profit must be fairly cheap because so many people from her church go there. In fact, its tuition is more than double what ours is. > > Which is when it hit me. For all of the rhetoric about competition and following the marketplace, colleges don’t really act like competitors when it comes to advertising. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/30 "2019-06-04T21:02:35Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > The greater number of people there are holding higher qualifications the lower the price of each job in the labour market that requires such a qualification. Yep, I’ve tried to point that out in a number of threads- the more fungible the workers for a particular job are, the less it will pay, and vice-versa. Having more college degree holders means that more people are chasing the same number of jobs, and companies can offer less knowing that there are almost certainly college grads out there who will work for the lower wages. For example, if I look at the 1990 US college enrollment stats, there were roughly 12 million enrolled students. There were 21 million in 2010, and that’s stayed roughly equal since then. Assuming that overall graduation rates haven’t changed, that represents a 175% increase in a 20 year period. We know there hasn’t been a 175% increase in the number of jobs that are “college grad” jobs in that same period. So what are businesses doing? They’re basically using it as a sort of basic qualification for a lot of jobs that wouldn’t have required degrees in past decades. And that drives wages down on jobs that have always been college degree jobs, at least the non-technical specialist ones that merely required any degree. Another issue is that a lot of university people have a rather belligerent view of their institutions as research and learning institutions and specifically NOT as job/career training institutions. So they don’t give two shits about someone who view it the opposite way, and expect the university to be geared toward job preparation. I mean, a lot of “practical” degrees for use in industry might be a lot lighter on the theory, and a lot heavier on the more pragmatic concepts- in computer science, they could probably skip 2/3 of the math and a lot of the more theoretical coursework, and substitute courses in software/UI design concepts, security concepts, and things like that. But most of that stuff isn’t really where the theoretical roots of computer science are- I’d guess that stuff is considered IT/IS/MIS as far as research is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/31 "2019-06-04T21:38:20Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > This is a government created problem. Guaranteed loans and loans you can’t bankrupt are a horrible idea. We now have a situation where many people can get loaned money that shouldn’t get loaned money. Dr. Drake is a classic example where they loaned someone too much because they don’t care about your ability to pay it back, after all it’s guaranteed. Giving young adults access to this kind of money is insanity and wouldn’t happen without the government interference in the market. What I’ve heard suggested (and I think some countries do) is to base loan repayment as a percentage of one’s salary. So that, say, ten percent of your gross salary goes to pay off your student loans, for as long as it takes. You could include some sort of discount for those who chose low-paying but socially beneficial jobs (teaching, working for a non-profit, etc). And the whole thing could be managed through the IRS and eliminate the private loan companies entirely. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/32 "2019-06-04T21:41:44Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > And I just realized… today is Tuesday. So yeah, that works. Pay today for a hamburger today. 😉 Holy shit, it IS Tuesday! I lost track. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/33 "2019-06-04T22:04:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How is that indicative of our country becoming brutally sad? For the same reason that using gofundme to pay medical bills is desperately sad. In a civilized nation, the citizens agree to come together and use the public sector to address these issues. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/34 "2019-06-04T22:15:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sorry to hear that, but did you just think a graduate degree was free? You didn’t know how much it was going to cost? You didn’t know that you’d have to pay rent to live in a place? You didn’t ask how long it was going to take? > > I don’t understand how someone could get into high five figure debt without asking these basic questions. You can ask these basic questions, but when 4 years of tuition to a public university costs $80,000 in a cheap state like mine, what answer do you think you’re going to get? I don’t think most people understand how the calculus has changed. In my day you could borrow your entire tuition and expect to pay it off within 5-10 years of work. It was cheap enough that you could work your way through it if you stayed in school longer. No longer. My alma mater costs 9 times as much as it used to. Have starting salaries changed 9 times as much with inflation? Hell no. None of that is true anymore. A non-elite student who has no means can expect to take 20-30 years to pay back a regular degree. I think it’s a sad and broken society if we agree to tell lower-means B+ students to set their sights lower because we can’t figure out how to get college costs under control ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/35 "2019-06-04T22:19:21Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > This is a government created problem… Giving young adults access to this kind of money is insanity and wouldn’t happen without the government interference in the market. You are almost correct. This is specifically a problem of _neoliberal_ government. A progressive government would simply give people the money to go to college. Neoliberalism needs to involve the private sector and the free market, which tends to be a titanically stupid way to manage public concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/36 "2019-06-04T23:10:34Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Once upon a time, young people could graduate from school, get a job and start a strong family. Back when America was Great? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/37 "2019-06-05T00:09:08Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > For the same reason that using gofundme to pay medical bills is desperately sad. > > In a civilized nation, the citizens agree to come together and use the public sector to address these issues. Sorry, but I don’t think voluntarily going into debt is the same at all as medical emergencies. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/38 "2019-06-05T00:12:33Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > You can ask these basic questions, but when 4 years of tuition to a public university costs $80,000 in a cheap state like mine, what answer do you think you’re going to get? Uh, maybe “Go to a community college for two years and then transfer”? Or “Don’t go to college, get into a trade”? Or “The income forecasts for a job with your degree will not enable you to pay off your loan. You should probably pick something else”? There was a married couple on NPR yesterday, both with PhDs who were shocked when they couldn’t find jobs. As if they did no research whatsoever. Just seems strange to me. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/39 "2019-06-05T02:16:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Uh, maybe “Go to a community college for two years and then transfer”? I don’t think you understand that this is still mid 5-figures. > [@](#): > > Or “Don’t go to college, get into a trade”? Trade school… also 5 figures. But I don’t agree that B+ students should have to be plumbers because society can’t figure out how to get them into something more productive. > [@](#): > > Or “The income forecasts for a job with your degree will not enable you to pay off your loan. You should probably pick something else”? What are “the income forecasts”? Are they like weather forecasts? Is this real? > [@](#): > > There was a married couple on NPR yesterday, both with PhDs who were shocked when they couldn’t find jobs. As if they did no research whatsoever. Just seems strange to me. I didn’t hear the segment you’re talking about, so I can’t speak as if it’s real. I can say that any PhD who expects to make bank off their degree is probably delusional. I know several PhDs who bitterly had to take jobs below their station, but it wasn’t a surprise to them or anyone else. I expect there probably are people who take on absurd debt to acheive an absurdly unproductive degree. We can always find nuts and outliers in any conversations. But by and large this isn’t who we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011/40 "2019-06-05T02:48:46Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I don’t think you understand that this is still mid 5-figures. I don’t think that you understand that I don’t believe you. > [@](#): > > Trade school… also 5 figures. But I don’t agree that B+ students should have to be plumbers because society can’t figure out how to get them into something more productive What’s wrong with plumbers? Should they be looked down on? Plumbers aren’t more productive than “business analysts”? > [@](#): > > What are “the income forecasts”? Are they like weather forecasts? Is this real? Not sure if you know this, but there is this new thing called “the Internet” that people can use to see what salary or wages other people with similar degrees are earning. > [@](#): > > I know several PhDs who bitterly had to take jobs below their station, but it wasn’t a surprise to them or anyone else If it wasn’t a surprise, then why are they bitter? > [@](#): > > I expect there probably are people who take on absurd debt to acheive an absurdly unproductive degree. We can always find nuts and outliers in any conversations. But by and large this isn’t who we’re talking about. Aren’t we? Most people get a degree and live happy normal lives. Outliers are those who think “Why doesn’t my job in kindergarten teaching pay my $80,000 school loans?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whopper-loans/835011.md?page=3)