# Who's crazier--Batman or the Joker? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 21, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257 "2010-03-21T18:22:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/21 "2010-03-22T05:40:31Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Animal control should be in the hands of the proper authorities, too, but wringing your hands while a rabid dog is running loose when you—and possibly only you—have the means to stop it doesn’t register as “moral” in my book. > > Hell, if he’s so against killing, why doesn’t Batman take responsibility for incarcerating the Joker _himself?_ He’s surely capable of figuring out a way to keep the Joker contained—and clearly he’s not going to be cheating him out of the desperately needed psychiatric help he’d get at Arkham, which is either nonexistant, or completely ineffective. Maybe he could even do it _legally_—get Wayne Enterprises to branch out into private prison/mental hospital contracting, and wrangling his way into getting jurisdiction for the “insane” supercriminals in the Gotham area. Surely he could afford it—and he’d probably make up a lot of the costs from what he WOULDN’T have to spend tracking down and fighting his villains in the first place, with the benefit that they’d murder fewer people. This, this, this. He can basically afford to do anything he wants. If he cares so much, he can hold the Joker himself. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/22 "2010-03-22T11:10:58Z")
> [@vdgg81](#): > > People write this all the time here and I just don’t get it. Even setting aside Batman’s moral code, surely the decision that a person is too dangerous for society at large and must be killed doesn’t belong to any single man, much less one that’s so personally involved in the issue, but instead must be arrived at by due process. It doesn’t matter what the Joker has done I just can’t see how Batman killing him in anything that’s not self-defense can be justified (though it could be excused). It would be wrong for a cop to kill the Joker once he’s been contained, so how can it be okay for Batman, who’s not even been appointed by society for his job to do so? If the Joker must die then he should be sentenced to death, not executed by a vigilante. But the fact is, in the Batman universe, the state either can’t or won’t kill the Joker. I lean towards “can’t.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/23 "2010-03-22T11:18:18Z")
> [@vdgg81](#): > > People write this all the time here and I just don’t get it. Even setting aside Batman’s moral code, surely the decision that a person is too dangerous for society at large and must be killed doesn’t belong to any single man, much less one that’s so personally involved in the issue, but instead must be arrived at by due process. Slight hijack, but Captain America once explicitly made that point – _ **upon killing a crook,** _ because he’s Captain Freakin’ America and so will of course promptly turn himself in to face a trial by jury. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/24 "2010-03-22T15:10:47Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Animal control should be in the hands of the proper authorities, too, but wringing your hands while a rabid dog is running loose when you—and possibly only you—have the means to stop it doesn’t register as “moral” in my book. A dog’s not a person. A dog’s not endowed with constitutional rights, a dog isn’t entitled to the protection of the law, and, as a society, we’ve never experienced the horrors that come from extrajudicial killing of dogs. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/25 "2010-03-22T15:30:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > A dog’s not a person. A dog’s not endowed with constitutional rights, a dog isn’t entitled to the protection of the law, and, as a society, we’ve never experienced the horrors that come from extrajudicial killing of dogs. Well, Michael Vick maybe… ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/26 "2010-03-22T15:34:43Z")
The Joker is not some ordinary, grubby little murderer. Hell, he isn’t even a serial killer. He’s a mass murdering monster who has the blood of, I expect, hundreds (or even thousands) on his hands. Batsy refusing to off him is exactly like refusing to zorch Josef Mengele, _while he was experimenting_, because it would be “wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/27 "2010-03-22T15:39:13Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The Joker is not some ordinary, grubby little murderer. Hell, he isn’t even a serial killer. He’s a mass murdering monster who has the blood of, I expect, hundreds (or even thousands) on his hands. Batsy refusing to off him is exactly like refusing to zorch Josef Mengele, _while he was experimenting_, because it would be “wrong.” Yep. Of course, IRL, someone that evil would either be 1)hiding in a foreign country and labelled a terrorist or b)on death row. The writers of the Batman comic books have twisted willing suspension of disbelief well past the breaking point with the Joker. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/28 "2010-03-22T15:43:22Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Joker. The Bat is obsessive, with a narcissistic streak, and occasionally displays a lack of empathy. > > Joker is obsessive, narcissistic, completely lacking in empathy, occasionally delusional, and actively homicidal. Nitpick: The Joker from “The Dark Knight” was _keenly_ empathetic. He understands the thoughts and feelings of his underlings, Batman, Harvey Dent et al unerringly. He simply uses his empathy for evil. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/29 "2010-03-22T15:53:09Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The Joker is not some ordinary, grubby little murderer. Hell, he isn’t even a serial killer. He’s a mass murdering monster who has the blood of, I expect, hundreds (or even thousands) on his hands. Batsy refusing to off him is exactly like refusing to zorch Josef Mengele, _while he was experimenting_, because it would be “wrong.” Part of the problem is that the Joker is, when all is said and done, just a man. Men can be jailed. Now, _we_ know that every time the Joker is incarcerated, he will escape at the time and place of his choosing. But Bats _doesn’t_ know that. He knows that the Joker has escaped before - but one assumes that, at every re-incarcertation, Arkham Asylam says (and probably quite persuasively) that they have implemented reforms/hired new staff/etc to ensure the Joker does not again escape. So, once the Joker is incarcerated, the moral analysis is just like that involved in the conventional death penalty - do we kill someone who’s already been effectively prevented from further offending? Bats says no - and so do I, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/30 "2010-03-22T15:55:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > A dog’s not a person. A dog’s not endowed with constitutional rights, a dog isn’t entitled to the protection of the law, and, as a society, we’ve never experienced the horrors that come from extrajudicial killing of dogs. Most people with constitutional rights don’t run around nerve gassing people for their own amusement; most people can actually be at least _contained_ by a prison. Frankly, the judicial system in this case is a worse failure than if it justified, required, and obligated Batman to return escaped slaves to their masters; or round up racial undesirables for internment so they wouldn’t pollute any bloodlines. At least _those_ would technically be _functioning_ laws. As it is, allowing the Joker to live turns the law into a suicide pact for it’s own sake. As bad as if it _ordered_ his victims to be arbitrarily killed. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/31 "2010-03-22T15:56:32Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Part of the problem is that the Joker is, when all is said and done, just a man. Men can be jailed. Now, _we_ know that every time the Joker is incarcerated, he will escape at the time and place of his choosing. But Bats _doesn’t_ know that. He knows that the Joker has escaped before - but one assumes that, at every re-incarcertation, Arkham Asylam says (and probably quite persuasively) that they have implemented reforms/hired new staff/etc to ensure the Joker does not again escape. > > So, once the Joker is incarcerated, the moral analysis is just like that involved in the conventional death penalty - do we kill someone who’s already been effectively prevented from further offending? Bats says no - and so do I, for that matter. But that’s just ridiculous, frankly. If a mass murdering psychotic terrorist had escaped over and over from every jail he’d been sent to for years, it’s INSANITY to think that THIS TIME you can hold him. Which is why not only Batman, but the whole judicial system in Gotham, their state and the country would have to be insane to believe it. But the truth is, the writers are just lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/32 "2010-03-22T16:03:37Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > But that’s just ridiculous, frankly. If a mass murdering psychotic terrorist had escaped over and over from every jail he’d been sent to for years, it’s INSANITY to think that THIS TIME you can hold him. Which is why not only Batman, but the whole judicial system in Gotham, their state and the country would have to be insane to believe it. But the truth is, the writers are just lazy. This is true, but I wasn’t even thinking of the Bats-sparing-J’s-life thing when I started the thread. It was more the efficacy of, say, using half of the billion-dollar-batmobile budget to help the GCPD hire more patrolmen and cut down on the random muggings, rapes, & murders. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/33 "2010-03-22T17:24:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > This is true, but I wasn’t even thinking of the Bats-sparing-J’s-life thing when I started the thread. It was more the efficacy of, say, using half of the billion-dollar-batmobile budget to help the GCPD hire more patrolmen and cut down on the random muggings, rapes, & murders. Hell, why not just ask Superman or Green Lantern to strand the Joker on an uninhabited planet somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/34 "2010-03-22T17:32:35Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The Joker is not some ordinary, grubby little murderer. Hell, he isn’t even a serial killer. He’s a mass murdering monster who has the blood of, I expect, hundreds (or even thousands) on his hands. Batsy refusing to off him is exactly like refusing to zorch Josef Mengele, _while he was experimenting_, because it would be “wrong.” This is why the Joker of _Batman: The Animated Series_ and _The Dark Knight_ is better. In _The Animated Series_, he’s a thief with a funny bone and rarely goes for the kill (what with it being a children’s cartoon at heart). And in _The Dark Knight_, the few people he kills are almost all mobsters and criminals just as bad (or worse) than he is. He probably killed a few cops with the cell phone bomb, but they were corrupt cops. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/35 "2010-03-22T17:34:57Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Hell, why not just ask Superman or Green Lantern to strand the Joker on an uninhabited planet somewhere? As was essentially done with the Solomon Grundys of Earths-1 and -2, at one time or another. And Doomsday. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/36 "2010-03-22T17:40:45Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > As was essentially done with the Solomon Grundys of Earths-1 and -2, at one time or another. And Doomsday. I had forgotten about Solomon Grundy, but yes, that’s right. Or almost. Supes dumped one on the moon and the second on a nameless asteroid. He exterminated several dozen when they popped up at once, but I’m willing to call that special circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/37 "2010-03-22T17:54:43Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I had forgotten about Solomon Grundy, but yes, that’s right. Or almost. Supes dumped one on the moon and the second on a nameless asteroid. He exterminated several dozen when they popped up at once, but I’m willing to call that special circumstances. And way back when, Green Lantern of Earth-2 and Dr. Fate once teamed up to create a green-and-yellow force bubble, put SG in, and sent him into space. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/38 "2010-03-22T18:02:39Z")
The Joker is definitely crazier. Anyone who would cover up a [nice mustache with white makeup](http://bruehoyt.com/superheroes/DC/batman/joker/cesar1.gif) definitely has a few things wrong upstairs. ---
**Author:** ![Noelq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noelq/32/16438_2.png) [@Noelq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noelq)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/39 "2010-03-22T18:17:36Z")
The Joker is insane beyond measure. The Batman is the most rational being ever conceived, hence his expertise as a detective. Bruce Wayne - He’s frackin’ nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Snite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Snite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snite)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257/40 "2010-03-22T23:08:01Z")
They’re both inherently insane. Batman is exactly that. Bruce Wayne is the mask that Batman wears to keep them money and resources he needs to keep flowing and this has been stated in the comics, and even in that one cartoon series where Batman is old and some kid has put on the costume. And he doesn’t kill simply due to morality, a man who breaks a petty criminal’s back doesn’t have moral delimmas, it’s just the killing repulses him because of witnessing his parents’ deaths. Batman is insane with all the potential to some day snap and go on his own killing spree lurking within him. And the Joker of course is a homicidal maniac. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-crazier-batman-or-the-joker/533257.md?page=3)