# Who's entitled to be called a bro, Bill or Barack? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544 "2008-01-22T19:29:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/21 "2008-01-23T00:45:03Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Exactly. No matter how much Clinton may feel the pain of Blacks, he’s never experienced the pain. You can bet Barack has, even if he had a relatively sheltered upbringing (compared to most Blacks in the US). When he walked into the store as an 18 year old, the clerk didn’t say: _Oh, he’s obviously half Kenyan and half White, so I won’t treat him the way I treat regular ol’ African-Americans._ [/QUOTE] Bill’s early life was much more similar to the early life of most blacks than Obama’s was as you note, so maybe he’s never been called a black epithtet, but I’m sure he was called the white equivalent. Barry Bonds given name is Barry, so he had little choice. Barry Whites is Barrence- Barry is the less ridiculous choice of the two. And the BET jokes yes are jokes, but if they had no basis in truth, why would they be used with him? Has Obama himself gone on record and said his early life was filled with racism? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/22 "2008-01-23T00:48:12Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Its generally agreed that there is more genetic differences among Africans than there is between Africans and Europeans. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Fear Itself] I wasn’t aware there were any unambiguous genetic markers for race. [/QUOTE] This is [simply](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy) [untrue](http://anthropology.net/2008/01/18/fighting-the-mantra-people-vary-more-within-the-groups-than-vary-between-groups/). While a single allele may be insufficient to determine race (“population”, what have you), a multidimensional analysis can easily distinguish different ancestries. The second link mentions articles that do just that - distinguishing between various European subpopulations. > [@](#): > > A second PC further separated Italian, Spanish, and Greek individuals from those of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry as well as distinguishing among northern European populations. > > If it can be done in perceived homoegenous European groups, it can be done elsewhere too. It is probably being done elsewhere To be fair, the technology to do these accurate screens was probably not available until fairly recently - the hapmap in particular exponentially increases the number of SNPs that you can look at. But to simply spout the unscientific PC mantra that there is no significant genetic difference between groups is ignorance-propagation at its finest. (The actual [paper](http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/164/4/1567), with various pretty charts.) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/23 "2008-01-23T00:48:53Z")
I dunno, which one is on the level? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/24 "2008-01-23T00:52:54Z")
I think Obama’s response a la Bill the Bro was pretty good, and, more importantly, healthy. Its a good sign, I think, that non-hateful race jokes are emerging in our culture. Blacks talk out at moves, white guys can’t dance. Its not earth-shattering or enything, but its a good sign, ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/25 "2008-01-23T01:00:39Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] Has Obama himself gone on record and said his early life was filled with racism? [/QUOTE] What does it matter?! Being black isn’t predicated on being the victim of racism. You don’t have to come from the ghetto, use urban slang, buy rib tips from a BBQ “shack”, or listen to hip hop to be black. Making an appearance on the Arsenio Hall show and playing the sax doesn’t make you black, either. William Jefferson Clinton is _white_. Ain’t nothing about him that makes him anything other than white. Had he been in the segregated south he woulda been expected to use the white folks water fountain and attend the white folks school. Had he been in the antebellum south he woulda been expected to crack that whip, not labor in the cotton fields. Whether or not anyone has called him nigger is immaterial. The last thing people think of when they look at Bill is race. That alone makes him definitely not-black. Call me when Obama can say the same thing. The man can not get away from race. He doesn’t have that option because _drumroll_ he’s black. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/26 "2008-01-23T01:12:58Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] And the BET jokes yes are jokes, but if they had no basis in truth, why would they be used with him? [/QUOTE] Because its funny to play with stereotypes? Because its even funnier to watch white people treat black humor as if its gospel truth? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/27 "2008-01-23T01:13:26Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] Barry Bonds given name is Barry, so he had little choice. Barry Whites is Barrence- Barry is the less ridiculous choice of the two. [/quote] So what was the point of this again? “Barry is a white name,” right? And you’re getting your facts from comedians on BET? I’m a little underwhelmed for some reason. > [@](#): > > And the BET jokes yes are jokes, but if they had no basis in truth, why would they be used with him? Because they’re recognizable, and not that hard. The jokes I remember about Clinton - which only came after Toni Morrison’s line; the joke before that was that he was dumb redneck white trash - went like “Bill Clinton is like a brother because he likes women with junk in the trunk.” Real insight. 😉 > [@](#): > > Has Obama himself gone on record and said his early life was filled with racism? His racial identity is one of the main themes of his first book; he talks in a bunch of places about not fitting in with either the white or black kids. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/28 "2008-01-23T01:13:48Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Do you realize how nonsensical that sounds? How can there be more genetic variation within group A than there is between group A and group B. To which part of group A are you comparing group B? [/quote] Well if group A is defined by skin colour or continental origin within the last 500 years, it doesn’t necessarily follow that the geneitics correlate. In my google research in order to respond to you, I’m now reading that the greatest genetic distance is between African and non-African populations, something that I haven’t come across since I last google researched in order to participate in the race debates of old. I guess I answered my own question. > [@](#): > > As to the rest of your OP, well it was a stupid question last night and it’s even more stupid here. As far as I’m concerned it was a legitimate question that challenged the notion of race. I find your last statement unecessarlly abusive and ignorant. The title was fairly explicit. Why you open and respond to stupid threads baffles me. I certainly don’t have the time to waste. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/29 "2008-01-23T01:14:39Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] What a damn stupid waste of time \*that \* question was. How long has it been since Wolf Blitzer took his job seriously? [/QUOTE] Yes, a waste of time, but I’m pretty sure it was Malveaux who asked the question, not Blitzer. > [@ywtf](#): > > William Jefferson Clinton is white. Ain’t nothing about him that makes him anything other than white. Had he been in the segregated south he woulda been expected to use the white folks water fountain… He was in the segregated south. Clinton was born in [Arkansas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws#Arkansas) in 1946-- about 10 years before I was born. I didn’t live in that state, but I can remember whites only water fountains when I was a kid, so I expect he did, too. He would’ve been through high school before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/30 "2008-01-23T01:22:34Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Well if group A is defined by skin colour or continental origin within the last 500 years, it doesn’t necessarily follow that the geneitics correlate. [/QUOTE] You can divide the world population of humans, at just about the highest level, into 3 broad haplogroups. All three can be found in sub-Sahara Africa, but only 1 can be found outside Africa. That means that all non-African populations are descended from a sub-group of one of the 3 haplogroups, all of which originated in Africa. That doesn’t result in less genetic distance between Africans and Europeans than there is between Africans. It’s possible that any given European might be genetically closer to some Africans than those Africans are to other Africans, but that is entirely different from what you claimed in your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/31 "2008-01-23T01:52:43Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] Because its funny to play with stereotypes? Because its even funnier to watch white people treat black humor as if its gospel truth? [/QUOTE] My original comments were based on thinking the OP was asking which one was figuratively more a bro, because if they meant it literally, obviosuly Bill is not the answer. I’m still not sure what the OP was asking, but Bill is \*\*figuratively \*\* more of a bro- I can’t believe anyone would seriously question that. And if the BET jokes (and Jamie Foxx’s comments on Bill, and other real black comedians, not just the scrubs) are so totally ridiculous and have no basis in reality, why Bill out of the millions of white people? Why aren’t they doing Bruce Willis is a bro bits? Did I just invent the notion that blacks as a whole love Bill Clinton and cliam him as one of their own? Curse you BET, for making a fool out of whitey :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/32 "2008-01-23T02:03:10Z")
Overheard after September 11 in a liquor store in Little Rock frequented by Black patrons: “This never would have happened if Clinton had still been President.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/33 "2008-01-23T02:46:59Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] I’m still not sure what the OP was asking, but Bill is \*\*figuratively \*\* more of a bro- I can’t believe anyone would seriously question that. [/quote] What does this even mean, dude? Surely you can flesh this out a little bit more, since you seem to strongly believe this is the case. > [@](#): > > And if the BET jokes (and Jamie Foxx’s comments on Bill, and other real black comedians, not just the scrubs) are so totally ridiculous and have no basis in reality, why Bill out of the millions of white people? The more you talk about BET comedians the more you look like you have no idea what in the holy hayl you’re talking about. It’s like thinking I know Spanish just because I’ll occasionally tune in to the soaps on Telemundo. Some questions for you: Do you think Bill could get away with calling a black person “my nigga?” without attracting attention and fuss? What about “boy”? Do you really think he could have sat in a debate and cracked jokes about dancing and being black? Bill Clinton may have been seen as “honorary black” until recently, I’ll hand you that. But that title–being that its not meant to be taken seriously anyway _as it is a joke concept_–can be withdrawn with a quickness. Bill lost his in the eyes of a lot black people the minute he started going attackdog on Barack. But what do I know? I’m not on BET telling jokes. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/34 "2008-01-23T03:04:39Z")
Former UN Ambassador [Andrew Young](http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071208/D8TDI1B00.html) suggests that Clinton has been with more Black women than Obama. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/35 "2008-01-23T03:47:36Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] Overheard after September 11 in a liquor store in Little Rock frequented by Black patrons: “This never would have happened if Clinton had still been President.” 🙂 [/QUOTE] Now now, individual ignorance is no excuse to tar an entire group as ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/36 "2008-01-23T04:01:54Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] Bill’s early life was much more similar to the early life of most blacks than Obama’s was as you note, so maybe he’s never been called a black epithtet, but I’m sure he was called the white equivalent. [/quote] There is no white equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/37 "2008-01-23T04:03:39Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] This is [simply](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy) [untrue](http://anthropology.net/2008/01/18/fighting-the-mantra-people-vary-more-within-the-groups-than-vary-between-groups/). While a single allele may be insufficient to determine race (“population”, what have you), a multidimensional analysis can easily distinguish different ancestries. The second link mentions articles that do just that - distinguishing between various European subpopulations.To be fair, the technology to do these accurate screens was probably not available until fairly recently - the hapmap in particular exponentially increases the number of SNPs that you can look at. But to simply spout the unscientific PC mantra that there is no significant genetic difference between groups is ignorance-propagation at its finest. (The actual [paper](http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/164/4/1567), with various pretty charts.) [/QUOTE] None of this has anything to do with “Race.” “Race” is a biologically meaningless word and a non-existent genetic classification. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/38 "2008-01-23T04:08:01Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Now now, individual ignorance is no excuse to tar an entire group as ignorant. [/QUOTE] Nothing ignorant about it. They were right. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/39 "2008-01-23T04:15:51Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] to tar an entire group [/QUOTE] Bad choice of words. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544/40 "2008-01-23T04:34:33Z")
This OP baffles me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-entitled-to-be-called-a-bro-bill-or-barack/434544.md?page=3)