# Who's got the most obnoxious group of supporters: Ron Paul 2012 or Bernie Sanders 2016? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 6, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828 "2015-11-06T18:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/41 "2015-11-09T01:38:34Z")
There’s really no contest, because, let’s face it, Libertarians are cranks. They’re even worse cranks than the last three remaining American Communists. We only hear about them outside the Intertubes because big-biz has some little use for them. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/42 "2015-11-09T01:53:29Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I wonder what Chafee fanbase you have been running into. When he was running seemed pretty reasonable himself, as far as that goes. Yes, there obviously are only few but the main attraction for said supporters were essentially Snowden’s Ron Paulesque policies regarding Edward Snowden and Russia where even Sanders has counselled a policy more in line with historical American norms. > [@](#): > > Then again, in this post you seem to be annoyed at “normal” people in general. I have very little problem with “normal” people in the sense of the average person as opposed to what the mediarati (broadly of the centrist stripe) define as politically “normal”. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > In other words, exactly the way the white supremacists, nativists, and anti-Semites use it. How so? I’m not applying it to politicians for the reason of say supporting the State of Israel or immigration reform. > [@astorian](#): > > They’re about equally obnoxious, but the Libertarians draw a lot of racist loonies, while Bernie draws flaky, New Agey loonies. That’d only be equivalent if Sanders supported having the government fund “alternative medicine”. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/43 "2015-11-09T18:52:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, flakey, New Agey loonies are **better,** aren’t they? They might be just as loony, but at least their hearts are in the right places. This. I’d rather listen to blather based in compassion than blather based in self-preserving action against theoretical threats. And yeah, I do have Facebook peeps who like the shit out of all kinds of Sanders articles, and I have others of a more, well, non-Sanders bent. At least the Sanders spam is 90%+ accurate and reasonably insightful. I’m not getting tired of eco-friendly solutions to working with climate change and social inequality. But I get sick to death of libertarian-esque “I’ve got mine, you get yours” real fast. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/44 "2015-11-09T19:28:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I think Sanders (and his supporters) tend to think of conservatives as political enemies. Eh… that may apply for Sanders, but tons of Sanders’ supporters think of other Democrats as political enemies, not just conservatives. Or, rather, they think of other Dems who are not in their left wing corner as ‘conservatives’. The silliest is the Hillary Clinton is just a Republican, but I hear this nonsense all the time from Sanders’ supporters. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/45 "2015-11-09T20:03:11Z")
Hard for me to say but Sander’s supporters certainly drive me crazy **right now**. They are just disconnected from reality and honestly sound as bad as the worst Republican’s/Tea Party loons. Everyone is against them. Every major media outlet is conspiring against Sanders. They are completely immune to any logic being applied to their claims. Any dissent or disagreement is attacked. And their attacks on Hillary are as baseless and empty of substance as anything the Republican’s lob her way. It seems half my family are supporting Sanders and I’m about to block all of them on Facebook. All they do is post Bernie propaganda. Endlessly. All. Day. Long. Fuck Bernie Sanders, purely because most his supporters I see are total assholes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/46 "2015-11-09T21:35:13Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > It seems half my family are supporting Sanders and I’m about to block all of them on Facebook. All they do is post Bernie propaganda. Endlessly. All. Day. Long. I block anyone that makes 2 or more political posts a day. It saves me a lot of useless bs. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/47 "2015-11-09T22:23:21Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > Hard for me to say but Sander’s supporters certainly drive me crazy **right now**. They are just disconnected from reality and honestly sound as bad as the worst Republican’s/Tea Party loons. Everyone is against them. Every major media outlet is conspiring against Sanders. They are completely immune to any logic being applied to their claims. Any dissent or disagreement is attacked. And their attacks on Hillary are as baseless and empty of substance as anything the Republican’s lob her way. > > It seems half my family are supporting Sanders and I’m about to block all of them on Facebook. All they do is post Bernie propaganda. Endlessly. All. Day. Long. > > Fuck Bernie Sanders, purely because most his supporters I see are total assholes. 😃 Two things I should add: 1.) I’m a Democrat and will most likely hold-my-nose and vote for Hillary. I’d rather do that than vote Sanders and see Kasich, Cruz, or one of the other Republican’s win the election. 2.) I was obviously painting with a very broad brush and reacting to anecdotal examples I’ve encountered. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/48 "2015-11-11T09:00:10Z")
I think the most annoying thing about the Sanders campaign is that it’s exposed and magnified, once again, how Americans have no idea what socialism is, including Bernie himself and his supporters. They conflate it with welfare, safety nets, firemen, public education, the military, cops, public libraries, universal health coverage, corporate welfare, environmentalism, infrastructure spending, and on and on. They think Scandinavia is a socialist paradise when they’re a bunch of capitalist pig dogs. Really peculiar. I can appreciate appropriating the socialist insult from the right and using it as a strength and trying to tie it to things most people like, but that would still be dishonest. And it isn’t what’s going in most cases I see. Especially when people spit up word salad about socialism and capitalism being compatible. Maybe socialists should just call themselves communists, and communists can be communism+ or something. Then again, a lot of Americans conflate communism and fascism, so maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![tours\_of\_Gregory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tours\_of\_Gregory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tours_of_Gregory)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/49 "2015-11-11T12:32:08Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I think the most annoying thing about the Sanders campaign is that it’s exposed and magnified, once again, how Americans have no idea what socialism is, including Bernie himself and his supporters. They conflate it with welfare, safety nets, firemen, public education, the military, cops, public libraries, universal health coverage, corporate welfare, environmentalism, infrastructure spending, and on and on. They think Scandinavia is a socialist paradise when they’re a bunch of capitalist pig dogs. Really peculiar. > > I can appreciate appropriating the socialist insult from the right and using it as a strength and trying to tie it to things most people like, but that would still be dishonest. And it isn’t what’s going in most cases I see. Especially when people spit up word salad about socialism and capitalism being compatible. > > Maybe socialists should just call themselves communists, and communists can be communism+ or something. Then again, a lot of Americans conflate communism and fascism, so maybe not. I’m a conservative capitalist pig dog but I’ve always had respect for most of the genuine communists I’ve known. Always good to debate with, this watered down Bernie stuff and the self righteous that goes with it, it just is a bit annoying. It’s hipster socialism, where you can still buy your iPhone and pumpkin spice lattes. It wouldn’t be so bad if they didn’t fancy themselves so deep and radical. ---
**Author:** ![tours\_of\_Gregory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tours\_of\_Gregory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tours_of_Gregory)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/50 "2015-11-11T12:34:50Z")
On a have to deal with level, Bernie supporters. Most libertarians are terribly fun and sort of goofy people. I can’t personally get on board with most of there stuff, just economically it doesn’t make any sense but aside from the few angry ones, they seem really wide eyed. Plus how bad could a party Doug Stanhope tried to run for president for be. Ron Paul people in general weren’t as smarmy, Bernie people seem to want a medal. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/51 "2015-11-11T18:21:29Z")
> [@tours\_of\_Gregory](#): > > I’m a conservative capitalist pig dog but I’ve always had respect for most of the genuine communists I’ve known. Always good to debate with, this watered down Bernie stuff and the self righteous that goes with it, it just is a bit annoying. It’s hipster socialism, where you can still buy your iPhone and pumpkin spice lattes. It wouldn’t be so bad if they didn’t fancy themselves so deep and radical. It’s all for left-progressive social democracy – which **is** deep and radical by American standards. And, Looking around the world, at all the countries where things in general go as well ls in the U.S., and all the countries where things in general go better than in the U.S., and all the countries where things go worse, what appears to work better than anything else is social democracy. In Denmark, etc., you can still buy your iPhone, etc., plus you get the long vacations and family leave and job security and universal health care and everything else. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/52 "2015-11-11T20:51:36Z")
> [@tours\_of\_Gregory](#): > > I’m a conservative capitalist pig dog but I’ve always had respect for most of the genuine communists I’ve known. Always good to debate with, this watered down Bernie stuff and the self righteous that goes with it, it just is a bit annoying. It’s hipster socialism, where you can still buy your iPhone and pumpkin spice lattes. It wouldn’t be so bad if they didn’t fancy themselves so deep and radical. I don’t disagree-while I love Bernie I wish we had more hardhats among his supporters and less hipsters. For the same reason I respect a right-wing populist like Trump than some colourless Establishment hack like the Bushes or Romney. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/53 "2015-11-11T21:14:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s all for left-progressive social democracy – which **is** deep and radical by American standards. But it’s not socialism. It’s not even a good PR stunt, since you have people like **tours\_of\_Gregory** who think socialism means you don’t get consumer goods like iphones. The most charitable interpretation I can think of is that Sanders realizes socialism has has no chance in America yet so he’s laying the groundwork by moving the Overton window and making the word less stigmatized by associating it with government programs people like or saying Republicans already support “socialism” like corporate welfare or farm subsidies. So he’s not ignorant, just lying. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/54 "2015-11-11T21:54:18Z")
How are _you_ defining socialism? Does it have to have bottom-up soviet organization? What? ---
**Author:** ![FightMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71e660/32.png) [@FightMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FightMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/55 "2015-11-11T22:00:51Z")
I think I somewhat agree with marshmallow in that Bernie’s policies aren’t really full on “socialist”, and I really do wish he would stop identifying himself as a democratic socialist. He’s a moderate social democrat, and I certainly wouldn’t describe him as a demsoc. Of course I could be totally misunderstanding his point. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/56 "2015-11-12T00:15:07Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > How are _you_ defining socialism? > > Does it have to have bottom-up soviet organization? What? Worker control of the means of production. Communism is socialism in a society without classes, money, or a state. Those are standard definitions, except in America, where socialism seems to be “whatever the government does that I don’t like.” Or in this case, what someone does like. I was amused when I saw the recent story about the Denmark PM announcing that, contrary to Bernie’s contention, Denmark is capitalist. It is funny though, how Republicans hate the New Deal and see it as crypto-commie and have been clamoring to destroy it forever, even though it was a compromise to save capitalism in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![tours\_of\_Gregory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tours\_of\_Gregory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tours_of_Gregory)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/57 "2015-11-12T01:36:46Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > But it’s not socialism. It’s not even a good PR stunt, since you have people like **tours\_of\_Gregory** who think socialism means you don’t get consumer goods like iphones. The most charitable interpretation I can think of is that Sanders realizes socialism has has no chance in America yet so he’s laying the groundwork by moving the Overton window and making the word less stigmatized by associating it with government programs people like or saying Republicans already support “socialism” like corporate welfare or farm subsidies. So he’s not ignorant, just lying. Actually my mentioning Iphones was more due to the questionable production methods they have. We’d have smart phones, but apple would probably cease and there would be less consumer choice, money time and energy spent on the rapid development of consumer products. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/58 "2015-11-13T02:26:21Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Worker control of the means of production. Communism is socialism in a society without classes, money, or a state. Those are standard definitions, except in America, where socialism seems to be “whatever the government does that I don’t like.” Or in this case, what someone does like. I was amused when I saw the recent story about the Denmark PM announcing that, contrary to Bernie’s contention, Denmark is capitalist. Do you consider the French _Parti socialiste_, or ΠΑΣΟΚ in Greece, to be socialist? I mean, they have “socialist” in their names, but they’re pretty mainstream social democrats in some ways. I kind of think insisting that you have to be on board with Marx & Engels to be a “socialist” is a lost cause. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/59 "2015-11-13T02:46:31Z")
> [@tours\_of\_Gregory](#): > > Actually my mentioning Iphones was more due to the questionable production methods they have. We’d have smart phones, but apple would probably cease and there would be less consumer choice, money time and energy spent on the rapid development of consumer products. And that is a bad thing how? A system where corporations are not always in breakneck competition to come up with the next big toy first would be positively refreshing and relaxing compared to what we’ve got now. Sometimes it seems like all they do is try to invent products to meet needs nobody knew they had – I mean, fabric softener?! [A for-real Marxist writes:](http://www.salon.com/2015/07/02/7_massive_misconceptions_you_have_about_communism_and_capitalism/) > [@](#): > > **6. Communism fosters uniformity.** > > Apparently, lots of people are unable to distinguish equality from homogeneity. Perhaps this derives from the tendency of people in capitalist societies to view themselves primarily as consumers: the dystopic fantasy is a supermarket wherein one state-owned brand of food is available for all items, and it’s all in red packaging with yellow letters. > > But people do a lot more than consume. One thing we do a huge amount of is work (or, for millions of unemployed Americans, try to and are not allowed). Communism envisions a time beyond work, when people are free, as Marx wrote, “to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner… without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.” In that way, communism is based on the total opposite of uniformity: tremendous diversity, not just among people, but even with in a single person’s “occupation.” > > That so many great artists and writers have been Marxists suggest that the production of culture in such a society would breed tremendous individuality and offer superior avenues for expression. Those artists and writers might have thought of communism as “an association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all,” but you might want to consider it an actual instantiation of universal access to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. > > You won’t even notice the red packaging with yellow letters! > > **7. Capitalism fosters individuality.** > > Instead of allowing all people to follow their entrepreneurial spirit into the endeavors that fulfill them, capitalism applauds the small number of entrepreneurs who capture large portions of mass markets. This requires producing things on a mass scale, which imposes a double-uniformity on society: tons and tons of people all purchase the same products, and tons and tons of people all perform the same labor. Such individuality as flourishes amid this system is often extremely superficial. > > Have you seen the suburban residential developments that the housing boom shat out all over this country? Have you seen the grey-paneled cubicles, bathed in fluorescent light, clustered in “office parks” so indistinct as to be disorienting? Have you seen the strip malls and service areas and sitcoms? Our ability to purchase products from competing capitalist firms has not produced an optimally various and interesting society. > > As a matter of fact, most of the greatest art under capitalism has always come from people who are oppressed and alienated (see: the blues, jazz, rock & roll, and hip-hop). Then, thanks to capitalism, it is homogenized, marketed, and milked for all its value by the “entrepreneurs” sitting at the top of the heap, stroking their satiated flanks in admiration of themselves for getting everyone beneath them to believe that we are free. ---
**Author:** ![tours\_of\_Gregory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tours\_of\_Gregory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tours_of_Gregory)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828/60 "2015-11-13T08:32:21Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Do you consider the French _Parti socialiste_, or ΠΑΣΟΚ in Greece, to be socialist? I mean, they have “socialist” in their names, but they’re pretty mainstream social democrats in some ways. > > I kind of think insisting that you have to be on board with Marx & Engels to be a “socialist” is a lost cause. I don’t think you need to be a Marxist or on board with some variant of marxism. Though you need more government involvement in the economy outside of expanding welfare. Under that line of thinking any country that has government funding assistance of any type is on the spectrum of socialism, you’d have to call Bush or Romney socialists and that seems fairly incorrect to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-got-the-most-obnoxious-group-of-supporters-ron-paul-2012-or-bernie-sanders-2016/736828.md?page=4)