# Who's in the wrong here? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 15, 2013, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753 "2013-04-15T07:15:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/41 "2013-04-16T07:51:45Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Did you knot notice the “unemployed” part? As in “no independent income”? As in “in and out of court trying to enforce payments?” As in "no money for ‘in and out of courts’ either? Getting child support isn’t always a problem. Here they take it from paychecks automatically and I certainly never had a lawyer or a bunch of court appearances or anything. Sure, some noncustodial parents will decide to work under the table to avoid paying child support, but many don’t. > [@](#): > > OK, deep breath. Until you have a reliable, independent source of home, food, clothes, books, transportation, etc., you are stuck. No she’s not. What horrible advice. A lot of people don’t have all those things independently and don’t find it necessary to get with or stay with an abusive partner just to be provided with them. And she needs a reliable source of \*books \*before she can leave a man who hits her? That’s a new one. > [@](#): > > How likely are you to be able to produce an adequate income? Section 8 housing is filled up in large cities (and probably small ones ans well) > AFDC \_ General assisstance - does this sound preferable to dealing with a man who hasn’t grown up enough to get past the “because I sid so and i’m bigger” phase (typically by age 10). The OP is not in the US. I also didn’t even see where she said she doesn’t work, but maybe I missed it. And physically abusing your wife (in front of the child, no less) is “hasn’t grown up enough”?? Way to make excuses for abusers. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/42 "2013-04-16T08:39:39Z")
I make no excuses for anybody. I do point out that “dump the bastard” is MUCH easier for a complete stranger to say than for the person involved to do. Practicality needs to be addressed BEFORE you are desperately looking for someone to take you in. ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/43 "2013-04-16T08:49:56Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > My thread was triggered by the other thread where a shove and pulling out the car-key-while-driving was cause enough for the woman calling the cops on her husband, and Dopers to come in and say: “Yup, your marriage is dead, lawyer up already”. Wow, way to completely downplay what happened to Paolo Verde. I noticed you did it in her thread too. It wasn’t “just” a shove. Her husband tried to block her into a space with his body, and when she tried to push past him to get away from the argument, he not only shoved her but started kicking at her as well. That is why she called the cops on him, not just because he shoved her a little. Not to mention the part where turning the key in a moving car can cause some systems to lock up and the car to become highly difficult to control - and he did that while they were at speed. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/44 "2013-04-16T09:08:12Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > My sister married an ass. She was a “pretty girl” so she never needed to do anything but spread her legs to get what she wanted. Eventually, he turned his vicious assholery on her and their son. She had played “I’ve got a big strong man - the hell with what people think of me” for 40 years. When it came to finding a place to hide, she found she had no friends and no options. I don’t know if she is even still alive. Un, wow. So you just let your sister rot because she “spread her legs” for the wrong guy? Great Job! ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/45 "2013-04-16T09:28:17Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > I make no excuses for anybody. I do point out that “dump the bastard” is MUCH easier for a complete stranger to say than for the person involved to do. > > Practicality needs to be addressed BEFORE you are desperately looking for someone to take you in. Well yeah, unless you’re in immediate danger it’s a good idea to address the practical concerns first, to the extent that you reasonably can. But I looked back at her thread from a year ago and she is employed and doesn’t seem to think finances are an absolute barrier to getting divorced, just that obviously she would have \*less \*money and that’s no fun. Of course it’s way easier said than done to get divorced. But she doesn’t love him, doesn’t need him, and he hits her in front of her kid. It shouldn’t be too controversial to say that having your kid not be forced to witness his father assaulting his mother should come before being able to afford a nice house. In many cases there are severe practical and emotional barriers to leaving, but this doesn’t really seem to be one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/46 "2013-04-16T10:03:47Z")
You know it’s illegal to be married to a four-year-old, right? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/47 "2013-04-16T10:27:28Z")
**Blackberry** , s’okay, no worries. 🙂 Actually your initial response is interesting too, because all too often the consideration “am I over- or underplaying what happened in any way?” is a crucial one (with no clear answer!) in how the spouses see themselves, the incident, and how an outsider judges the incident and the relationship. **usedtobe** , you’‘re right of course that divorce is easier said then done. however, your comments on divorce being difficult if you don’'t have an income belong mostly in the other thread, because **Paloverde** is the stay-at-home mom, not me. I’m reading the recommended book on abuse, bought it on my Kindle. Looks promising. So far, I’m wondering if my husband, me, or neither of us will fit the description of the abuser in the book. I really have no idea. To those saying I’m underplaying what happened to **Palo Verde** : probably. I am not saying I am in the same situation, or even in a very similar one. Just that her situation and the responses to it made me wonder about a recent experience of my own. I also had a hard time really picturing what happened if someone would pull out the car key. In most modern cars, the whole system is locked to prevent pulling the car key out by accident. Palo Verde herself did not seem to have thought the car key incident meriting police intervention, not until the second incident. I had no idea what to make of it, Palo’'s car key incindent could be labelled anything from attempted murder-suicide to a childish gesture that was bound to end up with the car safely on the side of the road. Also, the situation reminded me of an episode years ago. I had a friend, a very strong woman (both psychologically, financially, and physically, she was stronger then her immigrant husband). They had an argument, he wanted to leave the house, she physically prevented him from leaving, he shoved her, (but no hitting or kicking) she called the cops on him. I always regarded that as an severe overreaction on her part. They divorced three years later. Again, I’m not saying PaloVerde’s situation is like that, and only she knows the whole story. And I think PaloVerde’s situation is so bad that she’s prepared to go through with a divorce that frightens her so much. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/48 "2013-04-16T11:44:51Z")
Your husband PUNCHED you and your reaction is “meh, no big deal, all couples do this”? This happens in front of your KID? I’m not telling you that you need to walk, but one way or another that behavior has to stop. No, most couples do not behave this way. No, it is not normal or okay. And yes, you are wrong to downplay the experiences of Palo Verde in the other thread. You do not screw around with the controls of a car that someone else is driving, period. And you sure as hell don’t punch or kick other people, particularly ones you’re married to! I’ve been with my husband for 14 years. We’ve had our share of arguments, some acrimonious. He’s never laid a finger on me in anger once, nor I him. That is marriage-destroying behavior in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/49 "2013-04-16T12:10:17Z")
**Ms Whatsit** , yeah, I get the message, but responses like yours are starting to feel like recreational outrage to me. I simply don’t believe that the never lay a finger on each other-couples also never verbally abuse each other. If most marriages were that ideal, that harmonic, that polite, we wouldn’t have the one-in-three divorce rate. Ironically, my husband had a visit from a friend of his last week. The friend told him about problems in his marriage (wife cheated because she found him and the marriage boring and they had been together since they were teenagers and maybe midlife crisis) and the probable divorce he was facing. When the friend left, my husband told me and him and I bonded together and congratulated ourselves on how we would never have _that_ kind of problems and how much better our marriage was. An understandable, and satisfying emotional reaction, but it is an emotional reaction and not a reliable indicator of what real problems a marraige is facing. And we do have the referral note to a marraige counselor taped to the fridge; husband just is reluctant to go and I’m currently not motivated enough to arrange a babysitter, take the time off, and drag him to a session. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/50 "2013-04-16T12:16:44Z")
I was raised in an abusive household and I assure you my outrage is far from recreational. I’ve no interest in sharing the grim details of my upbringing with someone who is treating this subject so flippantly, but I assure you it was not fun, and I would sooner live on the street than ever subject my own children to the same. Luckily that’s not a choice I have to make. Good luck to you. ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/51 "2013-04-16T12:16:58Z")
Never been hit. Never been verbally abused. Sure, we’ve had heated arguments and said things like ‘I’m fucking furious at you right now. I can’t believe you said that.’ But we’ve never called each other a rude name, like ‘You’re such a bitch’. That, to me, is when it descends into verbal abuse. To use your metaphor, if most marriages are this ideal, maybe that’s why two in three succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/52 "2013-04-16T12:50:09Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Ironically, my husband had a visit from a friend of his last week. The friend told him about problems in his marriage (wife cheated because she found him and the marriage boring and they had been together since they were teenagers and maybe midlife crisis) and the probable divorce he was facing. > When the friend left, my husband told me and him and I bonded together and congratulated ourselves on how we would never have _that_ kind of problems and how much better our marriage was. Wow. Ok, good luck with that, then. ---
**Author:** ![ads95](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5daacb/32.png) [@ads95](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ads95)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/53 "2013-04-16T13:00:44Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Your husband PUNCHED you and your reaction is “meh, no big deal, all couples do this”? This happens in front of your KID? > > I’m not telling you that you need to walk, but one way or another that behavior has to stop. No, most couples do not behave this way. No, it is not normal or okay. And yes, you are wrong to downplay the experiences of Palo Verde in the other thread. You do not screw around with the controls of a car that someone else is driving, period. And you sure as hell don’t punch or kick other people, particularly ones you’re married to! > > I’ve been with my husband for 14 years. We’ve had our share of arguments, some acrimonious. He’s never laid a finger on me in anger once, nor I him. That is marriage-destroying behavior in my opinion. I agree with this almost completely. My wife and I have been married 13 years. We’ve had a few fights that escalated to very raised voices (some might call it shouting). I have never hit her in anger. To me, that would be an entirely different level. If I ever did hit her in anger, I fully expect she would grab our kids, put them in the car, and she would leave the house. I don’t think that a since incident would lead to a divorce, but she would insist on me getting counseling and a number of other things before she came home. I fully expect that one incident would lead to many uneasy months. Hitting your spouse is simply not acceptable behavior. That’s my view. Also - I don’t believe you were in the wrong to take the phone away from him while in the car…he was potentially putting your life in danger. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/54 "2013-04-16T13:07:21Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > I simply don’t believe that the never lay a finger on each other-couples also never verbally abuse each other. If most marriages were that ideal, that harmonic, that polite, we wouldn’t have the one-in-three divorce rate. Not being verbally abusive isn’t the same as never fighting. It depends on the intent and the result. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/55 "2013-04-16T13:23:45Z")
I’ve been with the same man for over thirty years, married for over 20 of those. We’ve been so mad at each other that we each FELT like punching something - but never ever _ever_ have we touched each other in anger. We’ve had some yelling matches, but we have never called each other abusive names (bitch, bastard, asshole, motherfucker…) or told the other person they were stupid, lazy, ugly etc. We fight occasionally, we argue, but we have NEVER abused the other in any way. I can’t imagine a healthy marriage where partners trade blows and insults, in front of a kid makes it worse. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/56 "2013-04-16T13:29:44Z")
Man, if I hit my wife in the way you describe, you can bet that we would not be talking about who was wrong about the GPS. We would be talking about how I hit her and we’d probably be talking to a therapist, if not a cop. That would have brought any other disagreement to a screeching halt. Hitting is not ok and I have never hit my wife other than goofing around with her. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/57 "2013-04-16T14:23:40Z")
In retrospect, my fights with my ex were Not Okay verbally - I never said things like “I don’t even LIKE you!”, but he did, and it bothers me just thinking back on it. I wouldn’t call it abusive, but it wasn’t okay and I shouldn’t have put up with it for as long as I did. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/58 "2013-04-16T14:31:39Z")
Tired, stressed out, working parent here (as is my spouse). I can’t imagine being in a relationship that includes either verbal or physical abuse, exchanging hateful words, or a lack of respect to the extent of snatching things from each other. Frankly I’m distrubed by what seems like your boasting in this thread about “resentful sarcasm,” etc. I strongly feel that once very hurtful things are said there is no taking them back. Those words will always linger. We have occasional arguments, of course, but nothing like you describe as a B- marriage. I think a D+ would be more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/59 "2013-04-16T14:40:03Z")
Yes. There’s a world of difference between arguing and verbal abuse. My husband and I are also tired, stressed out working parents, and we fight often. We used to fight a LOT more, but we work on it, and it’s gradually getting better. We will never not fight at all, because that’s completely unrealistic. But - we _don’t_ verbally abuse each other. We don’t get sarcastic, we don’t call names, we don’t roll our eyes and dismiss what the other person is saying, and we don’t do “silent treatment”. And when I say “we don’t”, I mean that we _have_, in the past, and we hated the way it felt. So we make an effort not to do it anymore, and if we slip, we apologize right then and there, even if we continue fighting after that. Say we’re trying to figure out how to solve a problem, and my husband suggests something that, to me, is obviously unworkable. Before he’s even done talking, I roll my eyes, shake my head, and say, “Yeah, that’s a _great_ idea, genius. You should _definitely_ forge boldly ahead with that.” I will then immediately stop and say, “I’m sorry, that was unfair. I’m annoyed because that’s basically what you suggested before and I already told you why it would be a problem, so I feel like either you aren’t listening, or you’re ignoring my concerns.” Now, I may “say” all of at the top of my lungs, with teeth gritted, fists clenched, staring at the ceiling. And I might say “pissed off” instead of “annoyed”. But the point is that even though I’m still angry, I’m not being disrespectful. I _could_ have just let the fight end there instead of apologizing, and stormed off thinking, “He’s either a jerk or an idiot or both, but whatever. I’ll let him have his way on this, and when it comes back to bite him in the ass, I can say, ‘I told you so,’ and then maybe _next_ time, he’ll learn to _listen_ to me.” And he would have also felt angry, ignored, and disrespected. But by continuing the conversation, I open the door for him to say, “I’m sorry, I was so caught up in my idea that I didn’t really get what you were saying. Tell me again why it’s a problem?” Or perhaps, “Yes, you told me what the problems were, and _I_ was explaining why _this_ approach would fix them, if you had let me finish.” Oops. But as you know, this all hinges on treating each other with respect, and that’s really difficult to do if you don’t _actually_ respect each other. And it’s even harder to do if you’re the only one willing to be respectful. It takes an incredible amount of strength and maturity to _not_ try to “give as good as you get”. But if you can do it - if you can rise above your feelings and be respectful of him, while insisting that you be respected as well - you may well find that he starts to return the favor, and even if he doesn’t, you’ll be teaching your kid a better way to deal with disrespect and abuse. And as I said, I’m not talking about a Jesus-esque turning of the other cheek. I’m talking about acting as though you’re both rational, intelligent people. Expressing your feelings when you get hurt, rather than lashing out in response. Insisting on being treated respectfully by describing how you want to be treated - “If you respect me, then I expect you to listen to me and not just dismiss what I have to say” - and demonstrate that treatment yourself. And most importantly, if you make a good faith effort to be respectful to him, and you still do not receive the same in return, then your best option is to focus on \*self-\*respect, and remove yourself from the situation. Aside from all that, though: hitting? Seriously, grownups don’t hit. Or kick, or grab, or shove. Not even a little, not even once. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753/60 "2013-04-16T15:46:58Z")
I can’t imagine any adult thinking that it is ok to hit anyone because he/she is frustrated, or upset. What is he a two year old? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-in-the-wrong-here/655753.md?page=4)