# Who's meaner? The left or right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999 "2004-06-18T05:51:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/21 "2004-06-18T14:00:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I swear, for sheer comic gold you can’t beat a liberal. And for sheer refusal to get the point, you have, well, yourself. I provided a direct quote from Armey in response to the OP’s bumper sticker, a quote citeable from a wide variety of sources. Can you deny he said it, or that he is representative of your faction’s leadership? Obviously not. So it’s better to try to change the subject, isn’t it? You keep trying that approach, and you keep getting nailed on it, and you never understand why it works against you. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/22 "2004-06-18T14:09:30Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Oh, there’s plenty of meanness on both sides. Probably a LITTLE more on the Left, but only a little. > > What’s really absurd, though, is how often I hear people on the far fringes of the Left AND the Right making (essentially) the same silly argument: “You know what our problem is? We’re too nice. Our enemies are so evil, so sure of the rightness of their cause, they’ll say or do ANYTHING to destroy us. But we’re too civil, too moderate to fight their way, and so we always lose out.” > > The people who say such things actually mean it, too! I think this is about right… ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/23 "2004-06-18T14:51:00Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Bird, Kennedy, and others routinely trash Bush with extremely harsh attacks. I honestly don’t recall Republican reps trashing Clinton in a similar manner. Wow. I always thought that people who nap for eight entire years didn’t really exist. And here you are saying that you did that very thing. Or are you just yanking us, here? You really don’t recall Mena, Foster or that complete load of hogwash that was Whitewater? Clinton was called a murderer and a rapist. With absolutely no proof whatsoever. And you’re bagging on _Kennedy_ for speaking out? _Kennedy_? The same Kennedy who can’t fart without someone mentioning Chappaquiddick? Nah, you don’t mean that. You’re just pulling my leg. Good one. Almost had me going for a second there. > [@](#): > > \*As far as image goes, the right is seen as meaner. Most people don’t know a lot about politics and it’s easy for them to just see conservative policies as “mean”, because they don’t understand them. Liberal social spending programs are misguided, IMO, but one certainly not call them “mean”. \* Yeah. When people disagree with you, they’re too ignorant to understand the nuances of tearing into AmeriCorps. That’s a great way of getting more people to back your candidate, blame them for their simplistic ways. I gotta remember these things. Do you have a newsletter? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/24 "2004-06-18T15:01:54Z")
We’re confusing two very different questions in this thread: 1. Which side, Left or Right, is meaner in terms of its demeanor, its style, its propaganda, its tactics and messages? 2. Which side is meaner in terms of what public policies it actually carries out when it is in power? It is very important to keep these separate. My judgment: With regard to 1., the Right has a slight edge in meanness, but it’s a close call. With regard to 2., it’s not even close: the Right is mean – not merely coldly indifferent to the plight of the suffering, but just plain downright **mean.** At least, at this stage in its history. Abu Ghraib was no aberration. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/25 "2004-06-18T15:10:03Z")
Also – we’re using the wrong terminology to begin with. Please bear in mind that we don’t really **have** much of a “Left” in this country, not any more. The Socialist Party and the Green Party are on the Left. Dennis Kucinich is on the Left. John Kerry is not. Even Howard Dean is not. This election is a contest between the Center-Right and the Far-Right. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/26 "2004-06-18T15:10:44Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Clinton was called a murderer and a rapist. With absolutely no proof whatsoever. Cite? (You will need to show proof that a Republican representative or congressman called Clinton a murderer and a rapist in order to back up your statement.) > [@](#): > > And you’re bagging on _Kennedy_ for speaking out? _Kennedy_? The same Kennedy who can’t fart without someone mentioning Chappaquiddick? Yes, Kennedy killed someone. I don’t recall Bush ever mentioning it since becomming president. On the other hand, Kennedy has been attacking Bush regularly. ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/27 "2004-06-18T15:14:05Z")
Hmm. Probably the left, although the right has had their moments, too. When the Republicans don’t like you, they go after you. When the Democrats don’t like you, they go after you, your spouse, your kids, your parents, your in-law’s, and your dog. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/28 "2004-06-18T15:16:40Z")
Kennedy’s accident killed one woman. How many are dead as a result of Bush’s foolish war? I think the right is a bit meaner- they often focus on issues regarding personality and personal behavior (Clinton and his sexual pecadadillos) as opposed to focusing on more substantive issues (like a needless war). Right wing media stars such as Rush Limbaugh make a living out of ridiculing leaders of the left, there really isn’t an equivalent reverse situation that I’m aware of. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/29 "2004-06-18T15:16:50Z")
[Perhaps it’s just electioneering, and the GOP’s elected leaders don’t really mean it?](http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/06/18/in_house_republicans_use_floor_time_to_chide_kerry/) > [@](#): > > Congressional Republicans have expanded their attacks on Senator John F. Kerry to the House floor, using a loophole in House rules that allows lawmakers to speak about a senator during legislative session as long as the comments are not personal in nature. > … > During the speeches, GOP lawmakers have called Kerry ''Hanoi John," and accused him of everything from undermining US troops to promoting policies Republicans say would cut jobs. > … > Representative James Gibbons, a Nevada Republican who chastised Kerry on the floor for having ''the gall to compare our efforts in Iraq to Vietnam," said \*\*the attacks were coordinated by Republican lawmakers \*\* and would continue until the election. > … > ''Even today, John Kerry votes against defense, the military, veterans, and intelligence bills that would enforce the safe return of our men and women" from Iraq, Representative Randy ''Duke" Cunningham, Republican of California, said during a one-minute speech in April. ''We do not need someone who would vote like a Jane Fonda as commander in chief. > … > Representative Sam Johnson, a Texas Republican and perhaps the most vocal of Kerry’s critics, has repeatedly criticized Kerry’s Vietnam War comments. > … > But Johnson continues to focus on comments Kerry made three decades ago. ''Is it any wonder my comrades from Vietnam and I have a nickname for him similar to ‘Hanoi Jane?’ He is called ‘Hanoi John,’ " Johnson said. Johnson was an Air Force pilot who was shot down in North Vietnam in 1966. > > Duncan Hunter, a California Republican, called Kerry’s Vietnam comments ''a wild-eyed, nutty statement" and said those who disagreed with it should ''vote against John Kerry." But, since the rules forbid personal attacks, and these gentlemen, being honorable, would not violate the rules, they must not be personal attacks, huh? Reppies: This is \*your \* leadership - the people _you’ve_ elected. Tell us, what comparable coordinated behavior from the Democrats’ elected \*leaders \* can you point to? ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/30 "2004-06-18T15:20:28Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Then there were the numerous questions of propriety concerning Hillary’s law practice and stock profits; **Whitewater** ; Hillary’s secret health care machinations; disappearing files; and of course, Vince Foster’s odd death. bolding mine Yeah, and if only republican leadership would have invested some time and resources into a Whitewater investigation, Hillary and Bill would surely be in jail by now, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/31 "2004-06-18T15:24:31Z")
Are we talking about the narrow range of American politics here? Or a broader range of what can be considered left? After all, somewhere between 50 and 100 million deaths can be credibly attributed to leftist governments in the twentieth century. These numbers dwarf the Holocaust by a good bit. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot - they’re pretty mean, in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/32 "2004-06-18T15:27:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Reppies: This is \*your \* leadership - the people _you’ve_ elected. Tell us, what comparable coordinated behavior from the Democrats’ elected \*leaders \* can you point to? Oh, please. Are you seriously suggesting that the Democrats aren’t guilty of the same behaviour? I don’t think any reasonable person would argue that this kind of stuff doesn’t happen a lot on both sides. Here are some Kennedy comments: [cite](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/05/kennedy.speech/) > [@](#): > > Sen. Edward Kennedy launched a blistering election-year attack on the Bush administration’s candor and honesty Monday, saying President Bush has created “the largest credibility gap since Richard Nixon.” > > The Massachusetts Democrat said that Iraq was never a threat to the United States and that Bush took the country to war under false pretenses, giving al Qaeda two years to regroup and plant terrorist cells throughout the world. > > “Iraq is George Bush’s Vietnam,” Kennedy said at the Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank. > > * * * > > “This misguided war in Iraq has distracted us from the real war we must win and made that war harder to win, because even as we combat terror, it has left America more and more isolated in the world,” Kennedy said. The republican’s respond: > [@](#): > > Kennedy’s comments also drew a strong rebuke from Senate Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-Kentucky, who took to the Senate floor to denounce them as “vicious” and “outrageous.” > > * * * > > “The only one responsible for the attack on America is al Qaeda,” McConnell said. “We need to focus on rooting out global terrorism by fighting the terrorists, not each other.” It looks like the republicans are taking the high road with Kennedy. He is attacking them, and they respond by denouncing his statements, but not responding in kind. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/33 "2004-06-18T15:30:26Z")
I think extremists are WAY meaner than moderates. No contest. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/34 "2004-06-18T15:30:41Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Cite? (You will need to show proof that a Republican representative or congressman called Clinton a murderer and a rapist in order to back up your statement.) Rep. William Dannemeyer started the infamous and discredited “Clinton Death list”. It did not outright accuse Clinton of murder, but the list certainly wasn’t made as a warning against the dangers of drunk driver. ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/35 "2004-06-18T15:31:22Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > Hmm. Probably the left, although the right has had their moments, too. > > When the Republicans don’t like you, they go after you. > > When the Democrats don’t like you, they go after you, your spouse, your kids, your parents, your in-law’s, and your dog. Try telling that to Valerie Plame. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/36 "2004-06-18T15:35:26Z")
[Here is the entire speech from Kennedy at the Brookings Insitution](http://www.brookings.edu/dybdocroot/comm/events/20040405kennedy.pdf) If this speech isn’t mean, I don’t know what is. The tone of it is just off the chart with venom. Keep in mind this is Kennedy, who is a leader of the democrats, not just some rogue congressman. I don’t think you can find the equivilent of this from the right. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/37 "2004-06-18T15:39:44Z")
> [@](#): > > “There was no imminent threat. This was made up in Texas, announced in January to the Republican leadership that war was going to take place and was going to be good politically. This whole thing was a fraud.” [– Sen. Edward Kennedy on Iraq, Sept. 18 2003](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A2670-2003Sep25?language=printer%5B/url) Accusing the president of just making up the entire war for political reasons? In addition to being foolish and baseless, these charges are mean. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/38 "2004-06-18T15:42:10Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Cite? (You will need to show proof that a Republican representative or congressman called Clinton a murderer and a rapist in order to back up your statement.) You must have heard of [Dan Burton (R.-IN).](http://www.tylwythteg.com/enemies/burton.html) > [@](#): > > In 1993, he fired a rifle at a “headlike thing” {reported elsewhere to be a canteloupe - EL} in his backyard in front of a homicide expert to prove his theory that Clinton advisor Vincent Foster did not commit suicide but was murdered and that his body was moved to a Virginia park. You already know who he thought did it. The Internet-facilitated [Clinton Body Count](http://www.etherzone.com/body.html), believed by many to this day. Rape? Aw, hell, [let’s just go to the Freepers and get it over with:](http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3988ecf52538.htm) > [@](#): > > Connecticut Rep. Chris Shays said on a talk radio show Wednesday that, based on secret evidence he reviewed during the impeachment controversy, he believes President Clinton raped Juanita Broaddrick, not once, but twice. > > Talk-show host Tom Scott of Clear Channel Broadcasting, New Haven (WELI 960) asked Shays about the mysterious impeachment “evidence room,” prompting the GOP moderate to say that Broaddrick “disclosed that she had been raped, not once, but twice” to Judiciary Committee investigators. Took about 5 minutes for all that. **Debaser** , wasn’t Kennedy just stating a growing consensus, even if it’s uncomfortable for you? The Vietnam comparisons are hardly confined to what you’d like to dismiss as the loony left, ya know. You can even find once-loyal Republicans doing it. As for the neglect of the get-Osama campaign (notably moving troops out of Afghanistan/Pakistan, where he was, and into Iraq, where he wasn’t), and Al Qaeda’s consequent ability to regroup, Kennedy’s simply stating the facts, as we’ve discussed many times on this very board, too. Even the Administration itself has made warnings about pending AQ attacks. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/39 "2004-06-18T15:44:45Z")
Hmm, I’m replying to a person who thinks that “accusing the president of just making up the entire {Iraq} war for political reasons” is _foolish and baseless_. I’m wasting my time. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999/40 "2004-06-18T15:48:35Z")
Just to show it’s not only Teddy who has a mean streak… [Cite: The first hit from a ‘Pelosi Bush’ search on google…](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/20/pelosi.bush/) > [@](#): > > House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi on Thursday sharply questioned President Bush’s competence as a leader, suggesting his policy in Iraq is to blame for the loss of U.S. lives. That assessment drew a furious response by Republicans who called on the Democratic leader to apologize. > > “The emperor has no clothes,” Pelosi, D-California, told reporters on Thursday. “When are people going to face the reality? Pull this curtain back.” > > Pelosi first delivered her comments to a California newspaper. She repeated them during an exchange with reporters Thursday – the same day Bush was on Capitol Hill meeting in private with GOP lawmakers in a sort of pep rally for the party faithful. The republican response: > [@](#): > > “Nancy Pelosi should apologize for her irresponsible, dangerous rhetoric,” DeLay, R-Texas, said. “She apparently is so caught up in partisan hatred for President Bush that her words are putting American lives at risk.” > > The Republican National Committee also released a written statement, saying Pelosi and other Democrats were putting more blame for the deaths of U.S. service members on Bush than on terrorists. And the statement tied Pelosi to Sen. John Kerry, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee. > > “The San Francisco/Boston Democrats led by John Kerry have now adopted ‘Blame America First’ as their official policy,” RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie said in the statement. It’s the same pattern. Democrat leaders blast away at Bush and the Republicans with harsh rhetoric. The Republicans respond by denounding the attacks, but not responding to them in kind. They don’t want to sink to thier level, so they try to just point out how absurd the attacks are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-meaner-the-left-or-right/250999.md?page=3)