# Who's more delusional - the Obama birthers or the moon landing deniers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119 "2009-07-24T13:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/41 "2009-07-24T22:35:20Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I dunno, as an Obama supporter, I love the Birthers, they don’t seem to be hurting Obama any, and are making his detractors look like weirdos. This is why I’ve read some prominent conservative bloggers arguing against the rumor, in spite of overwhelming opposition from their commenters. They (the bloggers) feel that it provides Obama an easy, humorous “out” to keep from dealing with their (more) legitimate concerns (ie jokingly comparing them to Birthers). I remember one in November even remarking that Obama probably loves it so much, he’d have given Birthers booths at the inauguration if he could. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/42 "2009-07-24T23:30:20Z")
Birthers are not conspiracy theorists. They are liars. They know the facts and say something else. That’s called lying. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/43 "2009-07-24T23:45:45Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Birthers are not conspiracy theorists. They are liars. They know the facts and say something else. That’s called lying. But if your lie is a theory involving a conspiracy, it is also a conspiracy theory and you are also a conspiracy theorist. Kind of like how you can be both ignorant _and_ stupid. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/44 "2009-07-25T00:06:11Z")
My point, as clumsy as it was, is that there isn’t a single person who really doubts Obama was born in Hawaii. The reason the arguments have failed is because non-birthers try to convince them of the facts (which the birthers known), instead of just calling them on being liars. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/45 "2009-07-25T00:12:04Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > My point, as clumsy as it was, is that there isn’t a single person who really doubts Obama was born in Hawaii. The reason the arguments have failed is because non-birthers try to convince them of the facts (which the birthers known), instead of just calling them on being liars. Hmm. I take your point, but personally I think you’re underestimating the stupidity - and laziness - of people. I know an incredible number of people who will hear and believe the liar without question - and repeat the theory without bothering to confirm that it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/46 "2009-07-25T00:13:13Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > I think the birthers have an edge in terms of craziness, because at the least the moon landing deniers aren’t filing lawsuits to “prove” NASA wrong. But either group isn’t going to be swayed by reason, or for that matter, anything short of a time machine to take them back so they can see for themselves what really happened. > What are your thoughts? At least a FEW of the moon landing Truthers are putting us on (just as the Flat Earthers don’t REALLY believe the world is flat). So, they re a bit less stupid/crazy than the rabid Obama Birthers. But neither is as vile, stupid, crazy, or flat out mean as the people obsessing over Trig Palin’s birth. ---
**Author:** ![BKReporter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@BKReporter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BKReporter)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/47 "2009-07-25T00:18:08Z")
The Moon Hoaxers are probably the more delusional, ignoring the fact that out of the thousands who actually worked on the Apollo program not one has ever come forth to acknowledge that something was amiss. That and I’m sure that if the Soviet Union had any inkling that the missions were faked, they would have had a field day with it. But the birthers are the ones with the potential to cause most trouble in that they have people who should know better and have a national platform - Rep. Bill Posey, Lou Dobbs, Liz Cheney, any number of right wing radio talk show hosts - egging them on. As far as I can tell no one of national prominence is supporting the Moon Hoaxers, and even if they were, they’re a relatively harmless bunch. What they’re advocating seems to be more for their own personal satisfaction (the need to believe that they’re in on some big secret) rather than an attempt to game the political system. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/48 "2009-07-25T00:18:28Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > I think the birthers have an edge in terms of craziness, because at the least the moon landing deniers aren’t filing lawsuits to “prove” NASA wrong. But either group isn’t going to be swayed by reason, or for that matter, anything short of a time machine to take them back so they can see for themselves what really happened. > What are your thoughts? Bullshit! You **rigged** that machine to take us to a parallel timeline! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/49 "2009-07-25T00:18:45Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > My point, as clumsy as it was, is that there isn’t a single person who really doubts Obama was born in Hawaii. I really think they do. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/50 "2009-07-25T00:22:00Z")
> [@Roulette](#): > > The moon landing required a lot of fancy technology. The images were transmitted back and the picture wasn’t really that good when compared to modern images. The claims the hoaxers make are more derived from a misunderstanding of the conditions and physics involved. They refuse to have their ignorance corrected, but one can at least generally understand the error being made. Actually, the Moon landing was real, but the **footage** was faked at a sound studio in Roswell, NM. This was done to cover up the real purpose of the Apollo program, i.e., a diplomatic mission to the Selenites, exchanging Tang for Velcro and digital-watch technology. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/51 "2009-07-25T00:28:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > I really think they do. That’s where I disagree. I think their defense of libel is “believing” non-facts. That is not an ethical defense, and it is not a legal defense. They are simply liars, with pants afire, and everybody needs to call them on it. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/52 "2009-07-25T00:30:14Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Hmm. I take your point, but personally I think you’re underestimating the stupidity - and laziness - of people. I know an incredible number of people who will hear and believe the liar without question - and repeat the theory without bothering to confirm that it’s true. That’s why the media has to stop saying “the facts are these, but so-and-so believes this.” They have to say, “These are the facts, the facts are known to G Gordon Liddy, Rush Limbaugh, etc., and they continue to spread lies. Because they are liars.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/53 "2009-07-25T00:30:46Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Birthers are not conspiracy theorists. They are liars. They know the facts and say something else. That’s called lying. You are seriously over-estimating the intelligence of some of these mouth breathers. I bet lots of them are stupid enough to really believe it. Rush and his ilk maintain plausible deniability. No matter how much evidence you show them, they act as if they’ve never seen it. BTW, how do they handle the evidence of the birth announcements? Do they just ignore them? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/54 "2009-07-25T00:32:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, how do they handle the evidence of the birth announcements? Do they just ignore them? They lie about them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/55 "2009-07-25T00:32:17Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Exactly. If they wanted him to be president, why the hell would they name him Barack Hussein Obama. And you have to have remember he was born early on in the Civil Rights era when many blacks were still unable to vote, let alone run for the highest office in the land. > You can see how quickly their conspiracy theories fall apart when you start applying logic. Of course logic is a brain function the birthers lack. [And yet, in a surprise twist, we were doomed anyway!](http://www.salon.com/comics/boll/2008/04/03/boll/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/56 "2009-07-25T00:33:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, how do they handle the evidence of the birth announcements? Do they just ignore them? Those could’ve been **phoned in from Kenya!** :mad: ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/57 "2009-07-25T00:57:28Z")
A coupla points: Jon Stewart was funny, but illogical. His parents didn’t have to plan to elect their baby President 47 years from 1961 to engage in a fraud. They simply could have wanted to make a baby born on foreign soil a natural-born citizen which Obama then exploited when he developed Presidential ambitions. It’s still nutty but not quite the wild leap in logic or motive Stewart was m0cking. And the moon hoaxers are plainly lunatics because they have a massive conspiracy without motive or means–it’s just nutjobbery, plain and simple. But some of the birthers have a clear, cynical, serious political motive, much like the motive for throwing wrenches into Health Care: to interfere with Obama’s popularity. In the absence of a real counter-plan, or ideas, or pretty much anything, they’re just trying to exploit anything that will detract from a perception that he’s not such a bad President. That isn’t crazy–it’s ludicrous, and ineffectual, but it’s far from insane. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/58 "2009-07-25T01:20:06Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > A coupla points: Jon Stewart was funny, but illogical. His parents didn’t have to plan to elect their baby President 47 years from 1961 to engage in a fraud. They simply could have wanted to make a baby born on foreign soil a natural-born citizen which Obama then exploited when he developed Presidential ambitions. It’s still nutty but not quite the wild leap in logic or motive Stewart was m0cking. Is there any advantage to being a natural born citizen other then being eligable for the Presidency (and the Vice-Presidency, I guess)? I assume a child born to an American mother wouldn’t have any problem getting back into the country and then getting US citizenship regardless of where he was born, so I can’t really think of any advantage to faking a Hawiian birth as opposed to Ann Durham simply naturalizing him when she got back to the states. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/59 "2009-07-25T01:29:40Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > A coupla points: Jon Stewart was funny, but illogical. His parents didn’t have to plan to elect their baby President 47 years from 1961 to engage in a fraud. They simply could have wanted to make a baby born on foreign soil a natural-born citizen which Obama then exploited when he developed Presidential ambitions. It’s still nutty but not quite the wild leap in logic or motive Stewart was m0cking. No, for the birth announcements and the registered certificate to exist, they must either be real, or have been faked at the time. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/60 "2009-07-25T01:33:12Z")
I thought there was some business about Ann Dunham disqualifying because of her age and being out of the US that combined to make her foriegn-born child ineligible for US citizenship–maybe this was more nutjobbery that I got hooked into. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119.md?page=4)