# Who's more delusional - the Obama birthers or the moon landing deniers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119 "2009-07-24T13:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/81 "2009-07-25T10:46:44Z")
The courts are dismissing them because they’re utter bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/82 "2009-07-25T12:41:08Z")
If you walked into a Secretary of State office somewhere and demanded a birth certificate that you really have no tangible need to have, i.e., not a relative or someone you have power of attorney for or whatever, said SoS office people are going to tell you to go take a hike. From what I understand, the difference between a Birth Certificate and a Certification of Birth is that one is called a Birth Certificate and the other is called a Certification of Birth. They both have the same language and information on them. (note: I could be completely wrong on that point) I still think that a lot of these morons are just upset that we have a (half) NEGRO in the oval office. The rest? Prolly just want to derail what looks to be a successfull presidency by the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/83 "2009-07-25T13:02:21Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > From what I understand, the difference between a Birth Certificate and a Certification of Birth is that one is called a Birth Certificate and the other is called a Certification of Birth. This is the sort of thing that makes people think they don’t have to pay taxes because there is fringe on the flag or Georgia miscounted their votes and didn’t ratify. I think the birthers and the tax protesters have a lot in common (and I suspect have some overlap - some of the arguments sound really familiar). And I don’t think the courts should give them the time of day. We have better things to do with our time. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/84 "2009-07-25T13:17:17Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But the biggest difference is that while Moon debunkers are continually proven wrong and cling to their beliefs despite that proof, the birthers were never provided with the proof that they requested - the long form BC signed by the doctor at the hospital when he was born. Think how less crazy the Moonies would sound if the only proof we had of going to the Moon was the head of NASA saying “I looked at the records and trust me, we went to the Moon.” Honest question; d’ya really think it’d matter? They’d just scream “Forgery!” ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/85 "2009-07-25T14:57:30Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > My point, as clumsy as it was, is that there isn’t a single person who really doubts Obama was born in Hawaii. The reason the arguments have failed is because non-birthers try to convince them of the facts (which the birthers known), instead of just calling them on being liars. Oh, I can fully see them believing Obama was born abroad. I think you underestimate the willingness of some people to believe anything as long as it fits into their political worldview. I grew up with such people. On a perfectly clear day if Bill Clinton had said the sky was blue and Rush Limbaugh had said it was plaid, they would have believed Rush unconditionally. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/86 "2009-07-25T15:12:13Z")
Well, it could just be that they are not being to their own selves true, but I hate rummaging around in their own conspiracy dogma to debunk it. I feel like you can’t win by going down their rabbit hole with them. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/87 "2009-07-25T15:15:09Z")
I’ve seen conflicting things about this “long form.” Most news outlets repeat the conventional wisdom that there is indeed a long form that hasn’t been shared, but I’ve also seen stories that there is no long form, that the department went digital and that the only birth certificate is the one they’ve issued and that everybody has seen. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/88 "2009-07-25T16:16:45Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > This is the sort of thing that makes people think they don’t have to pay taxes because there is fringe on the flag or Georgia miscounted their votes and didn’t ratify. I think the birthers and the tax protesters have a lot in common (and I suspect have some overlap - some of the arguments sound really familiar). > > And I don’t think the courts should give them the time of day. We have better things to do with our time. At least give the whole quote: > [@](#): > > From what I understand, the difference between a Birth Certificate and a Certification of Birth is that one is called a Birth Certificate and the other is called a Certification of Birth. They both have the same language and information on them. **(note: I could be completely wrong on that point)** bolding added as it wouldn’t be the first time something was missed. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/89 "2009-07-25T16:41:19Z")
I like the fact that the Birthers have made it a national story now. They are showing up on genuine news programs now and getting the snot blasted out of them on a regular basis. They’re no longer just talking to each other on the web and talk radio - they are now being confronted by actual journaists, and they are looking like the lunatics that they are. [One of many examples.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/32112335#32112335) That is almost painful to watch as Liddy melts down into old man whispers at the relentless presentation of facts. [Here’s another.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgP8s3gvSio) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/90 "2009-07-25T16:49:13Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > For the record, I’m not a Birther, but I too got frustrated with the whole lawsuits being dismissed, certification of birth vs. birth certificate (and yes in Hawaii they are different), did grandma _really_ say he was born in Kenya, etc. and just wanted that long form to come out to settle the issue once and for all. The suits were dismissed for absolute lack of any standing or merit. The state of Hawaii has confirmed that it has the original, “long form” birth certificate on file and that it’s legit. No, grandma did not say he was born in Kenya. That allegation comes from a taped telephone interview during which the grandmotherwas asked if she had been present at Obama’s birth. Because of langauge problems, she initially did not understand the question and said “yes,” then after clarification from a translator, she corrected herself and said _repeatedly_, that no, he was not born in Kenya, he was brn in hawaii. The birthers put a cropped portion of the tape on the internets so that all you hear is the initial “yes” without the emphatic correction. There is no evidence that Anne Dunham ever went to Kenya, and certainly not that she flew there when she was 9 months pregnant. There are no unanswered questions about Barack Obama’s birth or citizenship. It is COMPLETE bullshit, every bit as much as the truthers or the mooners. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/91 "2009-07-25T23:17:26Z")
I’m kind of divided on the original question. On the one hand, despite what some people are posting, all it requires for Obama to not be an American is his mother making a small “harmless” lie to smooth over her son’s life while the moon hoax requires such a complex, massive scale conspiracy that it completely unfeasible. On the other hand the birthers are denying reality in the face of simple, easy to understand evidence while the proof of the moon landing can be somewhat technical. So the more realistic conspiracy theory with direct evidence against it that any person with a room temperature IQ could understand or the crazier theory with evidence that requires a bit more reasoning to debunk… What if we put them both in a rocket and shoot it into the sun? ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/92 "2009-07-25T23:26:18Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > I like the fact that the Birthers have made it a national story now. They are showing up on genuine news programs now and getting the snot blasted out of them on a regular basis. They’re no longer just talking to each other on the web and talk radio - they are now being confronted by actual journaists, and they are looking like the lunatics that they are. > > [One of many examples.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/32112335#32112335) > > That is almost painful to watch as Liddy melts down into old man whispers at the relentless presentation of facts. > > [Here’s another.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgP8s3gvSio) What’s really painful is that it looks like someone coached Gordon and then sent him out there to deliver the normal speech, i.e.; Obama is not an American citizen. To me, he looks confused as more and more evidence is presented and he doesn’t know what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/93 "2009-07-25T23:27:35Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > I’m kind of divided on the original question. On the one hand, despite what some people are posting, all it requires for Obama to not be an American is his mother making a small “harmless” lie to smooth over her son’s life while the moon hoax requires such a complex, massive scale conspiracy that it completely unfeasible. On the other hand the birthers are denying reality in the face of simple, easy to understand evidence while the proof of the moon landing can be somewhat technical. So the more realistic conspiracy theory with direct evidence against it that any person with a room temperature IQ could understand or the crazier theory with evidence that requires a bit more reasoning to debunk… > > What if we put them both in a rocket and shoot it into the sun? I know kids! Let’s have David Icke resolve this! ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/94 "2009-07-26T01:58:47Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > At least give the whole quote: bolding added as it wouldn’t be the first time something was missed. Actually, the information on a birth certificate (certificate of birth, counselor report of birth, certificate of live birth, etc.) varies by issuing entity. The women on the Jon Stewart clip was ranting because there was no hospital or doctor - there is none on my daughter’s Minnesota birth certificate either - her name, our names, her place, date time of birth and our places of birth- that’s it. But that wasn’t really the point I was making with your quote. The point I was making is that some people believe that the law is riddled with ridiculous loopholes - and if you know the magic words, and the ritual - you can just slip right through them. There may be loopholes, and there may be places where the letter of the law and the spirit of the law aren’t quite united - but they aren’t things like fringe on the flag of tax court or the difference between the words “birth certificate” and “certificate of birth.” Interestingly, my son has Minnesota birth certificate listing us as his parents, is a naturalized citizen and was born in South Korea to a Korean woman. His does say “not proof of U.S. citizenship” across the bottom though. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/95 "2009-07-26T02:49:08Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Actually, the information on a birth certificate (certificate of birth, counselor report of birth, certificate of live birth, etc.) varies by issuing entity. The women on the Jon Stewart clip was ranting because there was no hospital or doctor - there is none on my daughter’s Minnesota birth certificate either - her name, our names, her place, date time of birth and our places of birth- that’s it. But that wasn’t really the point I was making with your quote. The point I was making is that some people believe that the law is riddled with ridiculous loopholes - and if you know the magic words, and the ritual - you can just slip right through them. There may be loopholes, and there may be places where the letter of the law and the spirit of the law aren’t quite united - but they aren’t things like fringe on the flag of tax court or the difference between the words “birth certificate” and “certificate of birth.” > > Interestingly, my son has Minnesota birth certificate listing us as his parents, is a naturalized citizen and was born in South Korea to a Korean woman. His does say “not proof of U.S. citizenship” across the bottom though. I wasn’t complaining about you, just that the whole quote might have been missed. I agree on the loophole thing though. There’s a lot of extremely dense people out there and also here on this very board that wouldn’t believe your “evidence” if it was signed by god. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/96 "2009-07-26T02:53:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, how do they handle the evidence of the birth announcements? Do they just ignore them? They claim that the Dunhams had it fraudulently put in because they wanted to cover up his Kenyan birth, so their grandson could stay in America and enjoy the fruits of citizenship. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/97 "2009-07-26T03:00:27Z")
Yeah, because you can get a SS#, a drivers license, a passport, anything with a birth announcement in a newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/98 "2009-07-26T03:05:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > To me that is more of a stretch. At least in that one might suppose the government might want to try a moon hoax but hard to imagine anyone develop a plan that has a snowball’s chance in hell of coming to fruition near 50 years later. Yeah, but that ignores the millions of other just in case plans they put into motion that didnt pan out (the possible Obamas). You never notice the ones that never had a chance. They still work at Deli’s and gas stations and whatevers… NASA only had a handful of fake future landings to plan for… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/99 "2009-07-26T16:56:06Z")
[_The Nation_](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/455452/the_birthers_of_a_nation) has an insightful take: > [@](#): > > Of course, the Lady in Red couldn’t scream the N-word in a townhall meeting (which, by the way, was called to discuss healthcare reform), so she screamed about his birth certificate. Karl Rove mentor Lee Atwater called this shot nearly three decades ago, when he explained how the Republican Party should parse its racism for the 20th century and beyond: > > > [@](#): > > > > You start out in 1954 by saying, `Nigger, nigger, nigger.' By 1968 you can't say `nigger’–that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now [that] you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. > > And now, finally, things have become so algebraic that the base goes totally into denial, refusing to see a notarized public document as it’s waved right under their noses, and the whole nativist scheme falls into ridicule. > > The Birthers go beyond simple conspiracy theories–they’re cast members of the ongoing American denying-reality show, not unlike the folks who deny the moonlanding or the Holocaust (like James von Brunn, the octogenarian who killed a guard at the Washington, D.C., Holocaust Museum and who had earlier posted a screed entitled “WHO SENT YOU???,” charging that Obama is utterly undocumented), and very much like the Creationists who insist that the Earth is but 6,000 years old, the Teabaggers who refuse to believe they must pay taxes, the 9/11 Truthers who say the government attacked the Twin Towers, and, as we might call them, the Inhofers who believe global warming is a hoax. > > The word Birther itself comes trailing clouds of associative fog. It’s unclear who minted the term, but for the true believers themselves, it can have a positive ring. When I first heard of Birthers I thought maybe they were subscribers to some sub-catechism about the birth of Christ or an offshoot of the anti-abortion movement–pro-life, pro-birth. Which makes sense: The Bircher, er, Birther movement is born from the same psychology that can trace social unease to a single issue–if we could only stop abortion, we could turn the clock back to Father Knows Best; if we could abolish all gun control, we could restore the eye-for-an-eye justice of the Old West; if we could only prove that Barack Obama was “born in Kenya,” his presidency would go away and White Power would be restored. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/100 "2009-07-27T00:28:35Z")
Well, in one sense they’re right; if they COULD prove Obama was born in Kenya, then a white guy would be in power once more. And everyone would agree that it was the right outcome! But they can’t, and it’s impossible they ever will, so it’s totally moot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119.md?page=6)