# Who's more delusional - the Obama birthers or the moon landing deniers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119 "2009-07-24T13:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/101 "2009-07-27T00:36:45Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Well, in one sense they’re right; if they COULD prove Obama was born in Kenya, then a white guy would be in power once more. What would be the constitutional mechanism for removing a President who was found to be non-compliant with the “natural born” requirement for office? I doubt if he is going quietly, and I don’t think it rises to the level of a “high crime or misdemeanor”, though that is conspicuously vague for purposes of impeachment. At the very least there would have to be an impeachment and conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/102 "2009-07-27T00:41:27Z")
Hmm, true. I suppose I was thinking more of the probable eventual result, rather than the process. Not that it’ll matter in the next eight years (perhaps even ever), but it is an interesting hypothetical puzzler. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/103 "2009-07-27T04:24:43Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It was also an issue with Herbert Hoover. It was unclear if he met the residency requirement since he spent so much time in Europe. The issue was convienently ignored. How so? Hoover lived in the United States for the [first 23 years of his life](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover#Family_background_and_early_life). Why wouldn’t that meet the [14 year residency requirement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Clause_5:_Qualifications_for_office)? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/104 "2009-07-27T05:41:34Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There is that but then, as Jon Stewart recently pointed out in a hilarious way, the Obama conspiracy would have to have been planned 47+ years ago to get it rolling, then assume their Manchurian Candidate would manage to win a presidential election 47 years after he weas born. > > To me that is more of a stretch. At least in that one might suppose the government might want to try a moon hoax but hard to imagine anyone develop a plan that has a snowball’s chance in hell of coming to fruition near 50 years later. Prefacing my statement: I am 99.999% sure Obama is a US citizen, born in the state of Hawaii and the birthers are idiots.. BUT The fallacy in this argument is that you are assuming that the birth documents were faked with the express purpose of having Obama become President. This need not neccessarily be the case. There may be myraid other reasons why “they” would want to claim US citizenship that have nothing at all to do with becoming president or being some sort of Manchurian Candidate. And in the broader sense, I think this is a mistake that many make with conspiracy theories. In the case of (for example) 911, it’s inconceivable that the whole thing was planned and executed by the CIA. What’s much easier to believe (and much more possibly true) is that there was maybe one or two people that perhaps knew some part of the plan and did nothing to act. (not that I think this is likely, just possible is allA) ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/105 "2009-07-27T06:10:02Z")
Just to play Devil’s advocate… > [@CurtC](#): > > Well, four. Besides the birth certificate, we also have birth announcements in two different newspapers. IF the relevant parties were willing to pay for the announcement, why wouldn’t it run? Did the papers in anyway “verify” the birth? > [@CurtC](#): > > and the governor of Hawaii says she saw the original. Of course she saw the document - a forged copy was placed in the correct registry soon after Obama’s birth. I’m not sure of the exact procedure, but if Ann Durham knew a nurse or a clerk in the hospital, how difficult would it be for her to get that person to file a fake document? Are there any billing records for Ann Durham having been in the hospital for the birth? Are there any photos of her with the new born taken in the hospital? What about admission records? I’m sure she couldn’t just walk in and walk out a few days later carrying her baby right? What other mothers that were in the same ward as her at the same time? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/106 "2009-07-27T06:16:51Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > The fallacy in this argument is that you are assuming that the birth documents were faked with the express purpose of having Obama become President. This need not neccessarily be the case. There may be myraid other reasons why “they” would want to claim US citizenship that have nothing at all to do with becoming president or being some sort of Manchurian Candidate. > [@bengangmo](#): > > IF the relevant parties were willing to pay for the announcement, why wouldn’t it run? Did the papers in anyway “verify” the birth? These two don’t jibe. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/107 "2009-07-27T08:21:49Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > How so? Hoover lived in the United States for the [first 23 years of his life](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover#Family_background_and_early_life). Why wouldn’t that meet the [14 year residency requirement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Clause_5:_Qualifications_for_office)? Because it is unclear in the Constitution if the 14 years is cumulative, consecutive but at anytime in their life, or immediately preceding the election. For example, a person is born in the US and on their 15th birthday moves to a foreign country. 20 years later, are they still eligible to be President? Suppose someone travels all over the world and stays only 6 months out of the year in the US. Are they eligible? ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/108 "2009-07-27T15:23:38Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Just to play Devil’s advocate… > > IF the relevant parties were willing to pay for the announcement, why wouldn’t it run? Did the papers in anyway “verify” the birth? The birth announcements were not the paid (or sometimes free) kind that families place when a child is born. From [Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/01/worldnetdaily/birthers-claim-gibbs-lied-when-he-said-obamas-birt/): > [@](#): > > In researching the story, he went to the microfilm archives and found the birth announcement for Obama. Actually, he found two of them, one in his Honululu Advertiser on Aug. 13 , 1961, and in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin the next day . They both said the same thing: “Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Highway, son, Aug. 4.” > > But here’s the thing. Newspaper officials he checked with confirmed those notices came from the state Department of Health. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/109 "2009-07-27T15:34:08Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Just to play Devil’s advocate… > > IF the relevant parties were willing to pay for the announcement, why wouldn’t it run? Did the papers in anyway “verify” the birth? Yes. Newspapers verify birth announcements. > [@](#): > > Of course she saw the document - a forged copy was placed in the correct registry soon after Obama’s birth. I’m not sure of the exact procedure, but if Ann Durham knew a nurse or a clerk in the hospital, how difficult would it be for her to get that person to file a fake document? Impossible. > [@](#): > > Are there any billing records for Ann Durham having been in the hospital for the birth? Are there any photos of her with the new born taken in the hospital? What about admission records? I’m sure she couldn’t just walk in and walk out a few days later carrying her baby right? What other mothers that were in the same ward as her at the same time? Billing records from nearly 50 years ago? Are you serious? Obviously, no amount of evidence will ever convince you people. Hawaii has, in fact, released photographs of the original, “long form” birth certificate. If you’re going to just claim that it’s fake without a shred of evidence, then why ask to see it in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/110 "2009-07-27T15:42:16Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Of course she saw the document - a forged copy was placed in the correct registry soon after Obama’s birth. I’m not sure of the exact procedure, but if Ann Durham knew a nurse or a clerk in the hospital, how difficult would it be for her to get that person to file a fake document? Probably a lot more difficult than it would have been for Ann Durham to have just not run off to Kenya during her ninth month of pregnancy and had the baby on US soil. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/111 "2009-07-27T15:57:05Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Probably a lot more difficult than it would have been for Ann Durham to have just not run off to Kenya during her ninth month of pregnancy and had the baby on US soil. That’s the part (well, one part) that I’m missing…what is the reasoning that the Birthers give for Obama’s mom wanting to travel to Kenya to have him? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/112 "2009-07-27T16:00:44Z")
As long as we’re asking for records and proof of stuff that didn’t happen, is there any evidence Barack Obama Sr. went to Kenya at all during the period he studied in the U.S. - 1959 to 1965? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/113 "2009-07-27T16:08:45Z")
THe funny thing is that there is ZERO evidence he was born anywhere else. There is no birth ceritificate from Kenya, there is no newspaper announcement from Kenya. THERE IS NOTHING. And there is boatloads of evidence he was born in Hawaii. The fact is that a large segment of the population doesn’t like the idea of a black man named Barack Hussein Obama is President. He doesn’t jibe with their concept of what an “American” is and they hide behind their prejudices with this Birther nonsense. To claim otherwise is disingenious. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/114 "2009-07-27T16:14:37Z")
[When Ann Coulter calls you a crank, it’s definitely time to increase the dosage.](http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2009/07/ann-coulter-says-obamas-birth.html) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/115 "2009-07-27T16:33:57Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Just to play Devil’s advocate… > > IF the relevant parties were willing to pay for the announcement, why wouldn’t it run? Did the papers in anyway “verify” the birth? > > Of course she saw the document - a forged copy was placed in the correct registry soon after Obama’s birth. I’m not sure of the exact procedure, but if Ann Durham knew a nurse or a clerk in the hospital, how difficult would it be for her to get that person to file a fake document? > > Are there any billing records for Ann Durham having been in the hospital for the birth? Are there any photos of her with the new born taken in the hospital? What about admission records? I’m sure she couldn’t just walk in and walk out a few days later carrying her baby right? What other mothers that were in the same ward as her at the same time? Why? Certainly not to get citizenship for him, since he’d be the son of a citizen already. The only time it would matter at all is if he were going to run for president - which brings us back to TDS scenario. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/116 "2009-07-27T18:48:04Z")
[New huff post vid](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-stark/elected-birthers-on-the-h_b_245507.html) That guy sure can run… ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/117 "2009-07-27T21:45:37Z")
The best way of answering this is that they’re both more or less equally crazy, but in different ways. The Obama birther loonies are motivated by extreme political paranoia and probably some varying degrees of sublimated racism. The moon hoax wingnuts are motivated by distrust of authority and a huge degree of scientific and logical ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/118 "2009-07-27T21:54:10Z")
Heh, Hawaii US Representative Neil Abercrombie is introducing a [resolution commemorating the 50th anniversary of Hawaii becoming a state](http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.RES.593:). Among the many things it likes to point out that Hawaii is famous for, “Whereas the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii;” Time for some Republicans to put up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/119 "2009-07-27T22:51:36Z")
[It’s been blocked.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/27/house-to-consider-counter_n_245741.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119/120 "2009-07-27T23:00:32Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > [It’s been blocked.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/27/house-to-consider-counter_n_245741.html) By Michelle Batshit. What a surprise. I didn’t know she was a birther, but I can’t say I’m shocked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-delusional-the-obama-birthers-or-the-moon-landing-deniers/504119.md?page=7)