# Who's more honorable in relationships, men or women? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 22, 2011, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061 "2011-12-22T07:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/21 "2011-12-22T19:47:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Were you aware of another forum here that was specifically created as a place to share your unsupported opinion and solicit the opinions of others? And with that, I’m moving this thread to IMHO from Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/22 "2011-12-22T19:54:38Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Okay, well…the pick-up artist “community” is almost entirely made up of men, for starters. How honorable are their tactics? Not very, I’d say. > > As **Argent Towers** points out, men are more likely to cause physical harm to their partners, and more injury in each incident. > > Societies which subject their women to oppressive and/or physically damaging clothing, sexual surgeries, reduced opportunities for education, decreased ability to build wealth and lack of voice in their governments are, sadly, all too common all around the world. Name me a single existing country where elected women leaders similarly oppress men as a class. Now tell me that a whole country full of such men are “honorable” in their dating lives. Sure pick-up artists are not particularly honorable. Though I’d say the kind of guys you’re talking about are pretty rare. I’m talking about how people have sexual relationships at the common level not extremes of antisocial or criminal behavior. I’m also talking mostly about western culture, obviously arranged marriage is about as dishonorable as you get toward women. female circumcision, we ca have a parade of examples of horrors women have endured. I am not talking about that. I’m talking about western, modern non-criminal relationships. I am also not talking about discrimination in society generally. We can have another thread about that and most everyone will agree that women have been hosed for a long time in plenty of areas. I am talking about how men and women behave in the typical male with female relationship without physical abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/23 "2011-12-22T19:57:52Z")
> [@Sudden\_Kestrel](#): > > So, what I said, only more concise, right? > > Noncrackpot YouTube videos are acceptable, too. As to your question, I would say [counts on fingers] many hundreds, possibly thousands over the life of the board. Facts, polls, studies, surveys and the like can be used to back up opinion or even form the basis for an opinion. > > Here’s my opinion, then. I’m not like the women you describe in your OP, and IMO not all women are like these women. Ditto that for men; not all of them are like the men you claim to be the norm. I think matters of honor are not likely to have any connection to gender whatsoever. If you can scrape up any reasonably credible evidence that even suggests otherwise, I’d love to see it. Again the exceptions do not disprove anything here. Its not specifically gender connected. I do not think women are born less honorable in relationships but I think in western society today they are raised to be. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/24 "2011-12-22T19:59:00Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > If a man and woman get pregnant but. How does a man get pregnant? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/25 "2011-12-22T19:59:44Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Being honorable in this context I define as being honest, not being the opposite of honest, liking people for non-shallow/status reasons I’d say is another one. I’m already dreading the direction this thread will go, but I wanted to ask anyway: the primary distinction you give between how men and women choose their mates is youth/looks (for males) and status/wealth (for women). How did you get from that to the conclusion that men are more “honest”, “non-shallow”, and women are more “straight forward”? ---
**Author:** ![PacifistPorcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PacifistPorcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PacifistPorcupine)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/26 "2011-12-22T20:00:37Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Again the exceptions do not disprove anything here. Its not specifically gender connected. I do not think women are born less honorable in relationships but I think in western society today they are raised to be. And how do you know your experience is the rule and not the exception? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_With_The_Golden_Gun)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/27 "2011-12-22T20:01:08Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > How does a man get pregnant? They need to do way instain mother. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/28 "2011-12-22T20:02:18Z")
> [@Waxwinged](#): > > To the OP: If those are your general opinions of the female sex, maybe you should start hanging around with more decent women. Argument by insult. Novel. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/29 "2011-12-22T20:03:21Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > If a man and woman get pregnant but aren’t mutually committed the woman can take the baby to term and demand marriage or child support. The guy only has the condom to help him out there, and those do fail just fine, and if the couple doesn’t use one well it’s both of their choice unless something horrible is going on. > . Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/30 "2011-12-22T20:08:34Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > This is what jumps out at me from your OP - you categorise attraction based on “looks and personality” to be “straightforward” but based on “success” to be … presumably not? How do you figure that? Aren’t you just assuming that “looks” is a “good” or “straightforward” criterion for judging a mate, whereas “success” is not because you’re a bloke and that’s how men usually do judge? In fact, too much success is actually detrimental to women looking for a mate. Is avoiding a relationship with someone who’s too successful more “straightforward” than persuing someone for that reason? > > Assuming of course that your factual analysis of people’s criteria is actually accurate, YMMV, yadda yadda yadda being straightforward I’m not referring to what motivates the person I’m talking about the interactions. A woman who likes a guy might complain at the end of the night, “I stood alone over at the bar several times but he never came over. I’m so bummed.” a guy would say, “That chick totally shot me down when I tried to talk to her dude. I’m so bummed.” The guy will initiate and be blunt. The girl will not initiate and pretend not to be very interested even if they are. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/31 "2011-12-22T20:10:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure pick-up artists are not particularly honorable. Though I’d say the kind of guys you’re talking about are pretty rare. I disagree. The pick up artist male is quite common. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/32 "2011-12-22T20:14:05Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > being straightforward I’m not referring to what motivates the person I’m talking about the interactions. A woman who likes a guy might complain at the end of the night, “I stood alone over at the bar several times but he never came over. I’m so bummed.” a guy would say, “That chick totally shot me down when I tried to talk to her dude. I’m so bummed.” > > The guy will initiate and be blunt. The girl will not initiate and pretend not to be very interested even if they are. If that’s all you’re talking about - guys tend to initiate contact - why bring up all that other stuff? By the way, I disagree about the “pretending not to be interested” part. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/33 "2011-12-22T20:14:39Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > I’m already dreading the direction this thread will go, but I wanted to ask anyway: the primary distinction you give between how men and women choose their mates is youth/looks (for males) and status/wealth (for women). How did you get from that to the conclusion that men are more “honest”, “non-shallow”, and women are more “straight forward”? I said men were more straightforward. Honesty is a separate issue. Being attracted to someone because of their financial status and/or success is pretty shallow if you ask me. Being attracted to looks is natural and a pure thing and theres nothing bad about it. Anyone who ignores personality to a ridiculous degree at the preference of other factors is usually very shallow. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/34 "2011-12-22T20:15:45Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > If that’s all you’re talking about - guys tend to initiate contact - why bring up all that other stuff? By the way, I disagree about the “pretending not to be interested” part. That’s is not all Im talking about, it’s just one example. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/35 "2011-12-22T20:17:52Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > I said men were more straightforward. Honesty is a separate issue. Being attracted to someone because of their financial status and/or success is pretty shallow if you ask me. Being attracted to looks is natural and a pure thing and theres nothing bad about it. Anyone who ignores personality to a ridiculous degree at the preference of other factors is usually very shallow. Being attracted to a man because of his financial status is shallow but being attracted to a woman because of her looks isn’t. Rather its “pure and natural”? LOL. How bout if someone can show you that there may be a biological reason for women to be attracted to a financially secure man? would that make it “pure” in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/36 "2011-12-22T20:18:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Being attracted to someone because of their financial status and/or success is pretty shallow if you ask me. Being attracted to looks is natural and a pure thing and theres nothing bad about it. I disagree. Being interested in the future, especially when contemplating raising children is very logical. Financial stability is directly related. Being interested based only on physical attraction is not only reckless, it shows a complete lack of maturity. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/37 "2011-12-22T20:23:17Z")
Human interaction can be a finicky thing, this is true. I think the question you should be asking yourself is, “Are these behaviors I’m noticing an artifact of confirmation bias? That is, are women who don’t act like this merely escaping my notice as opposed to obstinately not existing?” Once you’ve answered that question then you can move onto the next, which is “Are these innate characteristics of women or are they societally motivated behaviors?” Now, from my perspective, as a man who does not view women as relationship partners in the same way as you and having experience in relationships with a man, I feel I must opine that much of what people attribute to the battle of the sexes is really the battle of two people trying to bring separate lives to the same place. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/38 "2011-12-22T20:24:33Z")
I realize that English it not the OPs first language so his point may be lost in translation. I doubt in his native language it makes any sense either. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/39 "2011-12-22T20:24:34Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > I said men were more straightforward. Honesty is a separate issue. Being attracted to someone because of their financial status and/or success is pretty shallow if you ask me. Being attracted to looks is natural and a pure thing and theres nothing bad about it. Anyone who ignores personality to a ridiculous degree at the preference of other factors is usually very shallow. I really don’t see the distinction. It’s perfectly “natural” to be attracted to good looks AND financial status, and it’s almost a tautology that good looking people and succesful people both make better mates everything else being equal. Neither criterium is inherently good or bad. See also [naturalistic fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy) ( **especially** when you start calling things “pure”). ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/40 "2011-12-22T20:32:57Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > Being attracted to a man because of his financial status is shallow but being attracted to a woman because of her looks isn’t. Rather its “pure and natural”? LOL. > > How bout if someone can show you that there may be a biological reason for women to be attracted to a financially secure man? would that make it “pure” in your eyes? No, it wouldn’t. Animal instincts are not an excuse. Men could dismiss violence the same way which would be absurd. There is nothing negative to being attracted to looks. If you are only attracted to looks obviously that causes problems but I already said that men and women are both attracted to kindness and intelligence. The looks are important to men sure, but they are to women too, just to a much lesser degree. It’s not the lack of women being attracted to looks that is disturbing. It’s that status is more important than looks or personality to most women (in the west, modern culture yadda yadda). If you think young and middle aged men should be sexually attracted to women in their 90’s because of their charm… Thing is young and middle aged women will go out with guys in their 90’s for their wealth and status. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061.md?page=3)