# Who's more honorable in relationships, men or women? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 22, 2011, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061 "2011-12-22T07:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/81 "2011-12-22T21:56:31Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > This. > > As I said, you really leave me with nothing else. Put up a decent argument, and many here will be happy to discuss it. Put up something like _this_, and you will be mocked and vilified. Personally, I find it to be one of the better features of the board. I’ve given a cite, and given examples of believable social behavior. I have elaborated. The only thing anyone else has done is to say “I am not this way.” or “No, you’re wrong and a meanie.” ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/82 "2011-12-22T21:58:56Z")
At this point, I believe the ignore feature is the best bet. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/83 "2011-12-22T22:03:15Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Do you not see how your OP and subsequent comments are insulting? I realize it’s annoying when what you perceive as valid points and rebuttals are dismissed by others as inconsequential, but responding with glib dismissals on your part do little to convince others that you’ve a cogent argument. A lot of people have said that they disagree with your premises. That means you either need to reinforce said premises or re-evaluate them. Merely insisting they are true won’t get you very far. I know that in the zeitgeist they sound insulting, that’s partly why I broached the subject. Because I think the state of things is absurd., people’s scripted reactions are part of that. Obviously when the contest is assertion vs assertion I’m going to give preference to my own. I am the only one who has really elaborated or given a cite so in the evidence/integrity of argument weighing I think I come out on top. (The people that have said they are not that way I’m sure are fine people and I am happy they are not, but their existence among 150+ million women in my country and 100’s of millions in other somewhat similar countries is not very strong evidence) ---
**Author:** ![Waxwinged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@Waxwinged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waxwinged)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/84 "2011-12-22T22:07:10Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Argument by insult. Novel. It wasn’t meant to be an insult, just a fact. As some have stated in this thread already, my experience, based on observation, had been the near-opposite of yours. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/85 "2011-12-22T22:08:28Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Women tend to wear makeup. Women tend to have longer hair. \*Women tend to be whores. \* > > Hm… one of these is different somehow… Women who exchange sex for financial benefit are whores. If you don’t do this you are not a whore. How much of this goes on is up for debate. I also think that women are pushed toward this behavior by economic conditions and cultural traditions. I think it’s odd behavior for women to do this, but I see it happening a lot and it disgusts me. I also think it cheapens the human experience generally, it’s influence making the focus of society on the acquisition of things to display wealth or capture wealth via pretending to like people you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/86 "2011-12-22T22:11:40Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > I don’t think you are a feminist. You have some weird opinions about women. That women have the potential and do actually live in much more personally fulfilling ways than they do generally and that a history and ongoing sexism has left a lasting legacy that promotes women to be in roles that diminish and demean them? Such weird ideas lol. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/87 "2011-12-22T22:16:09Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > _ **WHY?** _ > > ETA: he’s obviously not a feminist, at least not in any way that real feminists would accept. Plenty of feminists have agreed with me that it is demeaning for women to be in relationships they do not prefer for the sake of financial security and that women should pursue men they are mentally and physically attracted to. I’m sure you can find feminists that would hate me because I used the word Whore and woman in the same sentence while possessing testicles, then they would have quips about the whores at the club with their friends. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/88 "2011-12-22T22:24:30Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Men will generally be honest and openly pursue women he finds attractive. Define “honest.” Honest = being obvious, or honest = truthful? Because I’ve got to tell you, one of the things that infuriates me about the men I’ve known is the number of them I’ve encountered who flirt and lay it on thick _for weeks_ before eventually revealing that they’re not actually available. I don’t go for girls, but the few lesbians I’ve been hit on by have never played head games like that. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/89 "2011-12-22T22:29:18Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > I don’t think you are using the words shallow and honor correctly. Someone (male or female) who is only looking good looks or high status are being shallow. But if one person rates status above looks that does not make them shallow. > > Everyone has a multidimensional, largely unconscious, mate selection strategy that changes depending on circumstances. Good looks can make up for less than stellar intelligence and vice versa. Someone looking for a casual hookup is going to rate looks and attitude higher than status. > > Also note that there are social factors involved. Men in many locations are looked down on if they have lower incomes than their mates. Women, on the other hand are thought of negatively if they have a higher social standing than their mate. > > Honor is also very dependent on society. Does a man who stays home and takes care of children lose honor? Even in the U.S. many still think it does. That means if the woman has a better income children are going to cost a lot more because her career will take the hit. If a guy delivering pizza marries a woman executive, she can’t stay home and raise children without taking a huge cut in lifestyle. > > And no, considering economic issues when choosing a mate does not make a woman (or a man) a whore. > > FYI, when women are economically independent, they start rating looks higher than income. In fact, the preferences of rich women seem look almost the same as those of men. Never said that a man who only considered looks was not shallow. preferring looks is not a substantial reason to like someone, it’s neutral, you have to like their personality to like them for non-shallow reasons. Attraction being unconscious does not make it shallow or not shallow, it just makes is unconscious. I would say women looking for a casual hookup are still rating status very highly, it’s heavily ingrained in many of them. Social standing is a shallow reason to date someone or not to. If your parents disapprove of you dating a black man and your neighbors think it’s awful is not dating them for his reason dishonorable? I think so. Call it what you want. I call it pathetic and being a whore. (If its someone’s only way to survive decently or to have their kids survive decently than it’s actually very honorable) No, man who stays home and takes care of his kids is just as honorable as a woman who does so, and more honorable than most in any case. If a person decides to stay home for their kids instead of sending them off to the babysitter mills all the time which results in less income and financial opulence they are even more honorable. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/90 "2011-12-22T22:33:50Z")
> [@perfectparanoia](#): > > So, black people are sneaky. Jews are cheap. Orientals can’t drive. > > There is one thing to have a neutral trait that is common (women are more likely to be short, wear makeup and have long hair than men). > > Asserting that we are the less honourable sex in relationships is not a neutral trait. It is an insult. All the women I know strive to be good people and honest in all their discourses ESPECIALLY those with their spouse. IMHO, men are the same way. Lol. Ya that’s what I said, totally. Stereotypes can be popular and untrue. They can be popular and true they can also be negative and be true, neutral and be true or positive and be true and vice versa. Stereotypes are despised because people misuse them and given them too much weight and believe ones that they have no personal experience to substantiate. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/91 "2011-12-22T22:35:40Z")
> [@Bloodless\_Turnip](#): > > I think the OP has some grudges he’s trying to deal with. > > We get it OP, you think women are whores. Okay, can we move on now? Argument by insult? Check. Inaccurate exaggeration? Check. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/92 "2011-12-22T22:37:59Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > So you are saying there is nothing wrong with going out with a woman with no redeeming qualities at all except being good looking. A guy who dates a stupid, petty, immature, mean, and all around unpleasant human being who happens to have good skin, nice hair, and shapely breasts is acting properly? > > Look, I think everyone can agree that if a woman is only dating a man for his money she is shallow. But a man that only dates women for their looks is equally shallow. Never said that. I’m glad you agree with something I did say though. Hallelujah!, Hallelujah!, Hallelujah!, Halleeeee-luuuu-jaaah! ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/93 "2011-12-22T22:41:59Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Have you considered the possibility that you in fact do not have an attractive personality? The attractiveness of my personality has an inverse relationship to the degree to which I am talking about controversial topics. It’s super attractive when I’m talking about the weather. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/94 "2011-12-22T22:43:16Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I’m insulting your ideas, not you. And that is allowed. And I can post where I want, and will do so, thank you very much. > > Also, I don’t so much “disagree with you” as “think you have disgusting, backwards, harmful ideas about women” and I consider it both a pleasure and a duty to call ignorance like that out. Especially on _this_ message board. It’s sort of in the charter. have fun with that. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/95 "2011-12-22T22:46:11Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Being a misogynist can also mean you hate and fear women, such as when a person considers most women to be whores. In other words, you. I consider people who act in a way that is defined as being a whore as whores. I do not hate and fear women anymore than I hate and fear humanity in general. I’ve always gotten along better with women than men actually. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/96 "2011-12-22T22:46:22Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > The attractiveness of my personality has an inverse relationship to the degree to which I am talking about controversial topics. It’s super attractive when I’m talking about the weather. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/97 "2011-12-22T22:47:52Z")
> [@overlyverbose](#): > > OP, if you came here just to have people agree with you, you’ve come to the wrong place. I also fail to see any “debate” in what you’re saying. You’ve clearly formed an opinion and are not planning to change it or consider the validity of anyone’s thoughts that may differ from your own. > > Plus, since you started your argument your criteria for shallowness and honor seem to have narrowed from “women are dishonorable because they’re liars and use shallow criteria for choosing a mate” to “women are dishonorable because I think they are.” If you’re going to harp about honesty, have the, ahem, honor to admit that you just think women are dishonorable and shallow for no other reason than that you say so. I am fine with people disagreeing if they will actually make arguments instead of simple personal attacks. I have not narrowed my criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/98 "2011-12-22T22:53:06Z")
> [@overlyverbose](#): > > In that case, many men are whores because they enjoy the financial benefits of women providing most of the childcare, household budgeting, cooking and cleaning services women provide in exchange for sexual or intimate favors in addition to working a full time job to contribute to household finances. You’re right. Many men are whores, though some of your analogy gets convoluted but I’ll forgive that since I tend to commit the same sin. Of course these men you’re talking about have to be whores because they’re having sex with women they’d prefer not to for financial benefit. The guys in your example I take it are also working and contributing? Getting whore out of this equation starts to get pretty tough at a certain point, but I’ll agree that there are many heterosexual men acting like actual whores, though it’s far less common, somewhat because women will rarely engage with such a man just because she likes his personality, looks and likes boning him. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/99 "2011-12-22T23:01:23Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Define “honest.” Honest = being obvious, or honest = truthful? Because I’ve got to tell you, one of the things that infuriates me about the men I’ve known is the number of them I’ve encountered who flirt and lay it on thick _for weeks_ before eventually revealing that they’re not actually available. I don’t go for girls, but the few lesbians I’ve been hit on by have never played head games like that. What you are describing is deceit and dishonorable. I have seen this as well and it’s pretty crappy. Some guys who are attached don’t want to actually cheat but want to know they could. It’s like virtual conquest for them and they enjoy flirting in any case so they lead you on to keep it going. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061/100 "2011-12-22T23:10:02Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > I am not imagining this. It’s pretty ubiquitous. I have had and do have a fine time with many women who are not this way. \*\*In fact I am completely unattracted to this majority of women. \*\*I know that when you disagree with someone it’s easier to attack them than argue the merits of their assertions but such is the way of things. I suspect that goes both ways, or perhaps is weighted against you more than you even realize. YO fail to mention relationships where men are with men and women are with women; OP, who do YOU think is more honorable in those relationships? ETA - did you really just come in here and call women whores when they choose to be w/ a man who will provide them and their future children w/ stability? I forget, is it \*\*troll \*\*we’re not allowed to call someone or **sock**? I’m willing to call the OP a troll and be warned to find out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-honorable-in-relationships-men-or-women/607061.md?page=6)