# Who's More Wrong Here? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2003, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880 "2003-10-22T11:45:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11

**Author:** ![Audrey\_Levins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Audrey\_Levins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Audrey_Levins)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/201 "2003-10-29T23:41:43Z")

Good point, **Tommyturtle.** And for you, **Gus,** it’s been well-established that when Jeff opened the book, he observed two twenties. Not just one that he picked up and then realized was stuck to _another_ twenty. It has also been established that he genuinely thought it was a tip; he very happily told a coworker about his “fat tip.” Anyone who thought they were pulling a fast one wouldn’t have mentioned the “extra twenty” to anyone, to prevent just this situation from occurring. Therefore, Jeff was _not_ stealing, and frankly I don’t like your implication that he was. He thought he’d been given a gravy tip, and when the guy came back and said it was a mistake, Jeff gave it back. Two freakin’ days later. When he had absolutely no responsibility to do so, he did it anyway. Nothing in Jeff’s behavior matches any definition of stealing that I’ve ever heard. And even if he’d refused to give it back, all of two days later, I don’t think that’s stealing either. Because if it is, all waiters/bartenders are “stealing” from any customer who decides, at a later point, that they want their tip back. For whatever reason. I’m sorry, but if the guy who tipped me $24 last night on a $50 tab comes in tonight and wants it back, he’s up a creek. And anybody who would say I owe it to him, if he decides that he made a mistake, is also up a creek. I didn’t steal it. I earned it. Bullshit. ---

**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/202 "2003-10-30T04:04:34Z")

:smack: > [@](#): > > 10-22- 2003 06:45 AM > Jeff opened the book and saw two twenty-dollar bills. Jeff obviously got very excited, and told a coworker how pleased he was that the guy had given him a $22 tip. \<-- A.L. Third party info, you did not see the book when opened so you only have your opinion maybe based on what he said. I \*\*NEVER \*\* said one word about Jeff. I said if anyone saw two 20’s stuck together . That point is not established an more than the customers claim that two stuck together. If you saw the two lose 20’s as the book was opened, then there is no discussion because they were not stuck together ever but you do not make that claim. The customer does and you do not say he is a liar. You go to great lengths with all sorts of rationalizations about right and wrong. IMO, if they were stuck together it was stealing. If they were not, then it is not stealing and the customer is a cheap ass. I was skeptical about ANYONE who saw 2 stuck together as to appear a single bill and then claim they are not stealing. I also further stated lower in my post that it would be stealing for me to do that if the bills are stuck and look like a single… So, put up or shut up. Were the 2 bills stuck together? Or were they lose and obviously separate bills? If they were, why did you not make that absolutly plain? It is your OP, you splain Lucy… :smack: ---

**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/203 "2003-10-30T04:09:52Z")

**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/204 "2003-10-30T04:20:15Z")

**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/205 "2003-10-30T04:39:51Z")

> [@](#): > > But Jeff wanders through most of his life in a dim and pleasant fog, so he didn’t think to ransom the money for a nice T-bone. All discussions of the tip aside, I think that Jeff probably should be in another job. And the “karmic” manager also should be in another job. ---

**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/206 "2003-10-30T06:47:53Z")

> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Audrey Levins \* > I have to be honest with you, **Noone Special.** :: snip::: And the rest of us? And your other posts? ;j ---

**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/207 "2003-10-30T06:49:02Z")

Geez, the hamster got stuck in a loop … ---

**Author:** ![Audrey\_Levins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Audrey\_Levins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Audrey_Levins)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/208 "2003-10-30T11:58:09Z")

> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GusNSpot \* > **Those are some of the lies we tell ourselves to cover the fact that we are stealing…** See, this sounds a lot like you’re accusing Jeff of stealing. So don’t give me any bullshit that you “never said” anything about Jeff stealing, b/c who the fuck else are we talking about here? Gimme a break! I also made what appeared (to everyone else) to be a very logical point about Jeff’s motives; if he, as you said, had actually _seen_ the 2 $20’s stuck together, and had separated them and kept that fact a secret, I’d say you have a point. But, as I have said MANY TIMES THROUGHOUT THIS DAMN THREAD, anybody who was thinking that they were stealing, or getting away with something, would not have told anybody about the fucking “gravy tip!” Ergo, Jeff was not aware that the tip was a mistake; he honestly thought it was a real tip, and was pleased about it. And as for your comment about “put up or shut up,” you fucking jackass, my OP was very clear. Let me break it down for you one more time: a.) Customer gives Jeff server book and says “Keep it.” b.) Jeff sees 2 $20 bills, and tells coworkers how happy he is about the badass tip he received. c.) Customer comes back several hours later and claimed he made a mistake. d.) Jeff gives him his money back two days later, on his next shift. Where’s the mystery, **Gus?** Jeff obviously thought the tip was legit, and the bills weren’t stuck together! Get a grip, for the love of God. Oh, and FTR, **Lynn,** I agree with you. ---

**Author:** ![stick\_monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@stick\_monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stick_monkey)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/209 "2003-10-30T15:20:27Z")

I got to this thread a little late. But as someone who has worked in several ‘tip’ jobs (waiter, 'tender, bus, Pizza Delivery), and as someone who tips well (and occassionally waaaaaay too well, by accident), I would like to throw my name in the hat on the Pro Jeff side. It seems pretty obvious from the OP and everything else reported by Audrey that he is a stand up (though dim) guy who genuinely thought it was meant as a tip. He wasn’t stealing by any stretch of the imagination dispite all the convoluted hypotheticals and yelling from the anti-jeff side. The customer is an ass in this case, and management a bunch of dillholes. Jeff gets double kudos for returning the money, but was never under any obligation to do so. Once someone says ‘This is yours, keep it.’ they shouldn’t ever, for any reason, be expected to be allowed to ask for it back. Where I come from (huge non-PC and possibly offensive statement coming up) that’s called ‘Indian-giving’ (which is btw an odd term, since the vast majority of the time it was white people giving to the Indians then taking it away and not vice versa). Humans are not telepaths, they cannot be expected to read, know, or even understand your intentions. Only your actions and words can be judged. If you cannot be held to them, then there are more problems in this world than can ever be fixed. Get a fucking clue, this wasn’t found money, or stolen money, or ransomed money. It was an excepted GIFT, discretionarily given for services perceived rendered. To be able to ask for it back would also enable one to ask for every $5 gift given at birthdays or christmases, and every tip given while drunk or UI. I could always claim that those were ‘mistakes’ too. ---

**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/210 "2003-10-30T21:42:12Z")

> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Audrey Levins \* > \*\*And he “nobly” gave Jeff two bucks out of the $20, for “being so honest.” \*\* Jeff is obviously a much nicer person than I am, because I would have handed him one of the dollar bills back with fake concern that he might not have realized they had been stuck together. Or alternatively, just handed the entire $2 back with the comment that CMC obviously needed it more than I did. What a cheap bastard. ---

**Author:** ![Tommyturtle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tommyturtle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tommyturtle)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/211 "2003-10-30T23:20:14Z")

As for good public relations in giving the money back I don’t see that guy coming back to that restaurant anytime soon He has to know how he appears to the people there I know if I was in that situation I wouldn’t go back ---

**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/212 "2003-10-31T08:16:31Z")

::: sigh::: OK, it is your story A.L. Just for fun lets change one little thing and you tell me what **YOU** will do. You are standing there with Jeff ( same ole Jeff ) as he opens the book and there appears to be one ( 1 ) 20. ( now we gots us an eye witness ) Jeff fumbles it and it turns into two ( 2 ) 20’s. He gets all excited about the great tip before you have a chance to say anything and you know that Elvis has left the building. What are YOU going to do or say, to Mr. Jeff? Elvis did say to keep the change just like in your story and all the rest. He comes back etc., etc. ---

**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/213 "2003-10-31T08:25:10Z")

Gus, I truly don’t see your point. I’m glad you’re so perfect that you would be able to guess another’s intentions and run after somebody to give him his money back and never even once get excited thinking maybe you’d earned it or the guy had wanted to be nice to you or something. ---

**Author:** ![Audrey\_Levins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Audrey\_Levins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Audrey_Levins)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/214 "2003-10-31T08:42:40Z")

How about let’s NOT change one little thing here, **Gus?** It’s not “my story,” it’s what fucking happened! And hypotheticals won’t change the facts, however much you’d like to try to twist this around so that Jeff was in the wrong here. Why do we need an _eyewitness_, for God’s sake? Jeff’s actions more than proved his honesty! And, more importantly, why are you being such a jackass? ---

**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/215 "2003-11-01T06:43:44Z")

Because I think your story is a crock. You did the poor dim Jeff bit but never said that the customer was a lair. What is all the garbage about new 20’s and et al? You had a great pit about a stupid crooked lying customer but you dragged poor dim Jeff into it but never said the customer was a lair, and trying to cheat. Why did not you and the manager get in the customers face. He said poor ole Jeff could have the change and there was no mistake. You A.L. , knew they were not stuck together, right? Sounds like you were the asshat to poor ole Jeff because you did not help him , just stood around and let the customer lie. Why was that? Hmmmmmm If the bills were not stuck together and he said , “Keep the change” then there is nada he could do. Who cares what the customer said if you knew he was lying? And racinchikk, you know me a lot better than that and I know you can read better than that. I didn’t say I would not take the money, I VERY clearly said I would know I was stealing it. ( two 20’s stuck together. ) I made absolutely no claim to be “perfect”. I do all kinds of bad things, I just don’t lie to myself about what I’m doing… You know I’m an old man and been up and down the road a bit. (you EVER see me claim to be Lilly White?) I am really disappointed in your stance but hey, you go girl. ---

**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/216 "2003-11-01T06:58:58Z")

I honestly don’t understand your point, Gus. I really, honestly don’t. All I can see is you accusing various and sundry at various times and of various things - Jeff, Audrey Levins, the customer; stealing, lying, failing to help people - and I have no idea what you mean by it. ---

**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/217 "2003-11-01T08:21:27Z")

Have you read the whole thread? All of it? Did you read the OP? Oh, and after this, " I’m glad you’re so perfect that you would be able to guess another’s intentions and run after somebody to give him his money back and never even once get excited thinking maybe you’d earned it or the guy had wanted to be nice to you or something. \<— racinchikki" You might understand why I ask? Or not. ---

**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/218 "2003-11-01T08:32:35Z")

Maybe I just don’t understand the way you express yourself, Gus. Apparently I’m going to continue to not be able to understand the way you express yourself in this thread, and so I shall leave it. ---

**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/219 "2003-11-01T21:14:35Z")

If you come back to look, I’ll try one more time. > [@](#): > > The customer put his money into the little black server-book, handed it to Jeff, told him to keep the change, and then left. > > Jeff opened the book and saw two twenty-dollar bills. Jeff obviously got very excited, and told a coworker how pleased he was that the guy had given him a $22 tip. The way this is written is that there is no question that the 20’s were separate and so the customer **had** to know that he had put in two 20’s. note: Jeff saw two , not A.L. so we go with Jeff being honest or do we go with him not bringing up anything about the bills being apparently a single because they were new, and also give him the doubt on intent, okay? ::snip:: > [@](#): > > Two hours later, the guy comes back and wants to talk to the manager. He tells our manager, whom I’ll call Chris, that he has a bunch of new twenties, and that he accidentally gave Jeff two twenties, when he meant to give him just one, because they were new bills and got stuck together. See any attempt by the OP to say that the customer was a liar? Would any customer that was this anal about his money have put two 20’s in and then later come back trying to pull a scam? (I’m sure it has happened sometime , somewhere ) and an experienced worker for tips such as A.L. would know that and ‘should’ have made that clear in the OP. But no, he just lets the customers statement stand and goes off on the right and wrong of it… > [@](#): > > He leaves, and then comes back again to give Chris his hotel information as well. (He’s here on business from out of town.) Good scam trick I would think, did anyone check? So if not checked we assume again… > [@](#): > > Now, I’m of two minds here; Jeff is not a particularly good waiter, so it’s highly doubtful he’d get that kind of tip, although tips like that do happen. (I’ve gotten a $50 tip on a $12 tab; I think everybody in the service industry’s gotten at least a dozen “incredible” tips before.) So I think Jeff should’ve suspected it was a mistake, even if he hoped otherwise. Sure starting to sound like a ‘story’ to me here. Why two minds? Jeff’s a liar or not. OP claims not so there is no question of correct procedure. = Customer is wrong. > [@](#): > > But then again, the guy didn’t even wait for Jeff to count the money; he just said “Keep it!” and walked out the door. Sounds like the guy thought he only put one bill in the ‘book’ \<-- note this book has to be opened to see what is there or so is inferred the OP above… ::: snip irrelevant stuff :::: So, did the customer lie to start with? We get no feel from the OP ( like in a badly written story) or was this a very elaborate scam by the customer with a lot of effort and if successful, he gains nothing he didn’t have before paid this bill? Kinda dumb scam you think? So, I think the story is a crock. There is not even a clear morality play here because the necessary clarity is not present even for a school question. And: I was very clear in that the comment I made about two 20’s stuck applied to me. > [@](#): > > “He is not my job. I am my job and two new 20’s stuck together and I keep it means TO ME that I stole it _._ \<-- that is a period dot!” \<------ From GusNSpot aka Dragon aka Gus aka CatBiker aka 3½¢ ------ just so there is no mistake. So, then the OP claims it is ‘clear’ that Jeff saw two 20’s. Well yeah, but when? Received no definite answer. Hmm ‘story’. So what about the customer, was he for a fact lying or just silly in putting two 20’s in the book or were there two new bills stuck together when he did? Either way, the customer loses because he said 'Keep". So the whole thing hinges on Jeff and so there is no problem at all. But no, the OP comes out with this big moral question, when there is not one. The customer was not some poor local splurging the rent money on a good meal because he is a crank addict but a ‘business man’ … come on… = story , which is fine but then why don’t we get any facts? Just a sideline stand about what was ‘thought’ to have happened? So, Jeff omitted part of the facts accidentally or on purpose, no info forth coming on that. The customer was really telling the truth and naive enough to think he would get his money back. Not about right or wrong in that case. Just policy of establishment and / or Jeff’s response. Now, why did not the OP say, "Maybe the bills were stuck when the customer put them in and the act of opening the book separated them so that Jeff did see $40.00 and the customer really needed the money but there was no intent on either side to be a crook. Now we are stuck on the horns of an enema… Now we can ask for “Who is more right or wrong.” In the OP there is no way to know because the OP did not and would not define if someone was a liar. Just said it was obvious and had been clearly stated when it had not been. If both parties are fully thinking in an moral manner and being truthful ( truth – which is relative to time and place) then there is no moral question, only a legal one. Even a dim bulb Jeff would be wrong, morally, IMO, if he saw that the bills were stuck as one and he had to separate them. Dim is Dim but that is … This is as clear as I can make my concerns in the time I have. YMMV Have a good day. ---

**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880/220 "2003-11-02T06:35:23Z")

Sorry if someone covered this already but I skipped from pg3 to 5. Is there an SDMB term for this? Anyway, from a semantics approach it seems like you make change for a single bill, not two bills. Know what I mean? Keep the change from a 20. The extra 20 is not change. I do however agree that Chris dropped the ball. He should have made it clear that the money could not be returned. When I travel on expense accounts is when I tip most generously from my own pocket because the company is footing most of the bill. The customer should have chalked this one up. Live and learn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-more-wrong-here/208880.md?page=12)