# Who's privileged? Who's unprivileged? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256 "2015-09-07T17:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/21 "2015-09-07T21:20:18Z")
It’s a principle that requires common sense. If you’re talking about the relative levels of privilege between two groups, there’s no point in looking for exceptional individuals (unless, of course, your purpose is to argue against the principle). Saying that white people, as a group, are better off than black people, as a group, in America is true. Finding exceptions like black millionaires and homeless white people doesn’t disprove the general rule. You also have to consider context. Obviously college students aag are better off than non college students aag. But within the context of college, white college students aag are better off than black college students aag. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/22 "2015-09-07T22:41:02Z")
[Quote=tomndebb] So? Your inability to discern privilege is hardly the measure by which we would judge it. In the situation you describe, who would be more likely to be rousted by police? One of the white men or a black man in similar situations. [/quote] I don’t know; honestly I’ve never seen a study of whether white or black homeless people are more likely to be harassed by police. Supposing that black men are more likely to be homeless than white men, which I’d guess is true, and that homeless people of all races are likely to attract police attention, that doesn’t mean that a white homeless man is less likely to be harassed than a black homeless man. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/23 "2015-09-07T22:52:58Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I don’t know; honestly I’ve never seen a study of whether white or black homeless people are more likely to be harassed by police. Supposing that black men are more likely to be homeless than white men, which I’d guess is true, and that homeless people of all races are likely to attract police attention, that doesn’t mean that a white homeless man is less likely to be harassed than a black homeless man. In the absence of such studies, I believe it’s wise to defer (on the subject of mistreatment of black people in America) to black people in America. We didn’t have studies of mistreatment of black people in the Jim Crow South – and, as has always been true in American history, black people were the best source of information about the mistreatment of black people in the Jim Crow South. I see no reason why this wouldn’t continue to be true. But I’d certainly like to see such a study be performed, though I’m not certain how one would determine scientifically what constitutes “harassment”. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/24 "2015-09-07T23:27:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the absence of such studies, I believe it’s wise to defer (on the subject of mistreatment of black people in America) to black people in America. We didn’t have studies of mistreatment of black people in the Jim Crow South – and, as has always been true in American history, black people were the best source of information about the mistreatment of black people in the Jim Crow South. I see no reason why this wouldn’t continue to be true. > > But I’d certainly like to see such a study be performed, though I’m not certain how one would determine scientifically what constitutes “harassment”. Why? Black people have no greater insight into the treatment of white people than white people do in the treatment of black people. If you want to confirm that black people are suffering mistreatment at above the base rate, you can’t just talk to black people, you need to talk to everyone. That being said, I’d be really interested in seeing a properly cohorted out study on police treatment, race, and income. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/25 "2015-09-07T23:36:06Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Why? Black people have no greater insight into the treatment of white people than white people do in the treatment of black people. If you want to confirm that black people are suffering mistreatment at above the base rate, you can’t just talk to black people, you need to talk to everyone. > > That being said, I’d be really interested in seeing a properly cohorted out study on police treatment, race, and income. Right – talk to everyone. Most white people do not report having been mistreated by police; a [much higher percentage](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/poll-majority-black-americans-report-unfair-treatment-police) of black people report that they have been mistreated by police. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/26 "2015-09-07T23:48:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I like the way John Scalzi puts it – it’s like video game settings: straight white male is the easiest difficulty setting, all other things being equal. Okay, but who plays on the next harder setting, white women, male minorities - if so which one? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/27 "2015-09-07T23:59:21Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Okay, but who plays on the next harder setting, white women, male minorities - if so which one? Good question – it probably depends on the circumstance. A white woman has the “privilege” of being less likely to be mistreated by police, while a black man might have the “privilege” of not having his value determined (or at least not determined as much) by his appearance. Overall, I don’t know, and I’m not sure if that can be answered. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/28 "2015-09-08T00:18:36Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > A while back I started a thread with a link to [this article](http://ithacavoice.com/2015/03/ithaca-college-student-gov-considers-new-reporting-system-microaggressions/) to start a debate about the validity of microaggressions. There’s another aspect that seems worthy of debate. The student in that article defines microaggressions as “statements by a person from a privileged group that belittles or isolates a member of an unprivileged group”. That assumes, of course, that there’s a clear definition of who’s privileged and who’s unprivileged, as do numerous similar statements from similar sources. Yet what exactly is the definition? > > Privilege is “[a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privilege?s=t)”. Of course many possible rights exist, so a person could very well have privileges in some areas but lack privileges in others. So describing one person or group as “privileged” is largely meaningless without defining what privilege you’re referring to. > > One common tactic is to assert that majorities are privileged and minorities unprivileged. This leads to some bizarre conclusions. 30 years ago, whites in South Africa were a minority and Blacks a majority, yet it’s hard to accept that Blacks were privileged and Whites unprivileged by any measure. The top one percent of income earners, often just called “the one percent”, are a minority by definition, yet few would call them unprivileged. The words “majority” and “minority” are also ambiguous. Whites may be a majority in the entire United States, but they are a minority in some states and cities. They are also a minority worldwide. So whether they constitute a minority or majority depends on the frame that we’re measuring within. > > More often, debate simply proceeds as if no explanation of who’s privileged is necessary. White males are often assumed to be privileged. But are they? I work once a week at a soup kitchen run by the Salvation Army. Roughly 80% of the individuals who come in to receive food are white men. Many are homeless, in terrible physical and mental health, and have inadequate clothing. I find it difficult to locate any privilege of any sort that these individuals enjoy which most people lack. > > On the other end of the spectrum, to story that I linked to at the start of this post comes from a private college where the annual tuition is $40,000. Many complaints about privilege and the lack thereof come from similar institutions with equal or higher price tags. It seems to be self-evident that anyone who attends such a school is privileged, regardless of skin color, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else. Being admitted to such a school is itself a privilege which most of the human race can’t have. Those who are privileged enough to attend such a school in turn earn economic, political, and social privileges that most people will never get. I will stipulate that every statement above is true. (I keep in reserve several important caveats.) You are a Christian, correct? When someone informs you that you need to be aware of your own privileges, in your mind, translate this to “Take the plank out of your own eye.” Meanwhile, should you be interested in informing others of the privileges they have, you are more than welcome to do so. As in all things, consider your own purposes (plank checking, again, is a good thing to do here) and consider the likely consequences. Have fun. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/29 "2015-09-08T00:48:16Z")
I have studied the Male Privilege thoroughly. How privileged is a male victim of domestic violence, who faces [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf)? Is it a privilege to get 63% more prison time for the same offense? Is it male privilege to be subject to constant male bashing in the media? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/30 "2015-09-08T01:16:19Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I have studied the Male Privilege thoroughly. > > How privileged is a male victim of domestic violence, who faces [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf)? > > Is it a privilege to get 63% more prison time for the same offense? > > Is it male privilege to be subject to constant male bashing in the media? Privilege is relative. Women still face greater difficulties due to their gender than men do. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/31 "2015-09-08T01:28:06Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I have studied the Male Privilege thoroughly. > > How privileged is a male victim of domestic violence, who faces [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf)? > > Is it a privilege to get 63% more prison time for the same offense? > > Is it male privilege to be subject to constant male bashing in the media? Which was what I already addressed: It is an error to believe that > [@tomndebb](#): > > privilege is a single trait that must be identically recognized and granted regardless of station or situation. Wealth does grant certain privileges. It does not, however, prevent a wealthy black man driving a Bentley the privilege of not being harassed for Driving While Black. That man certainly does derive certain privileges from wealth, but not all privilege is identical, either in its basis or its effect. It is entirely possible for a person belionging to one identifiable group to be privileged in one situation and not in another. As a college educated, white, male in 21st century North America, I have more privilege in more situations than most, but I am still more likely to be regarded with distrust when interacting with small children than a woman, for example. Privilege is not some sort of absolute that any one individual is granted in all situations. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/32 "2015-09-08T03:14:52Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Women are probably, on average, more privileged than men. This opinion of yours runs counter to an awful lot of facts. Want to explain that position? **ETA:** **tomndebb** has already stated a pretty good understanding of privilege. Still, I find it pretty bizarre that one could tally up all the privileges (if it made sense to do so) and come to the conclusion that women are above men on the power ladder. That’s like saying blacks are more powerful than whites because of Affirmative Action. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/33 "2015-09-08T03:32:45Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > This opinion of yours runs counter to an awful lot of facts. Want to explain that position? > > **ETA:** **tomndebb** has already stated a pretty good understanding of privilege. Still, I find it pretty bizarre that one could tally up all the privileges (if it made sense to do so) and come to the conclusion that women are above men on the power ladder. That’s like saying blacks are more powerful than whites because of Affirmative Action. Well, we do have a case where one group is vastly disproportionately the victim of violent crime, and suffers more both in terms of sentences and in non-court interactions with the justice system. Is this important? Or is this just a meaningless outcome which has nothing to do with whether or not group A or group B is privileged or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/34 "2015-09-08T03:39:48Z")
My privilege check bounced. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/35 "2015-09-08T03:40:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sez who? Obama is privileged to live in a white house, because he won some sort of election. A person has the privilege of adding “Ph.D.” to their name when they acquire a _boney fido_ accreditation (even if they can no longer remember why they wanted to). > > An advantage by birth is surely unearned, but that doesn’t mean all the rest of the world’s privileges are the same, or even most of them. Getting a PhD involves both the privilege of being born with enough intelligence to do it, but also the privilege of being able to put off earning real money until you get one, and of course the privilege of being able to afford a college good enough to prepare you for graduate school. And I agree that privilege has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/36 "2015-09-08T03:43:27Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Well, we do have a case where one group is vastly disproportionately the victim of violent crime, and suffers more both in terms of sentences and in non-court interactions with the justice system. Is this important? Or is this just a meaningless outcome which has nothing to do with whether or not group A or group B is privileged or not. Yeah, vastly disproportionately victims of violent crimes committed by members of their own gender. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/37 "2015-09-08T03:44:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > In some ways, I’m a privileged person. What this means is that when I hear about an issue that doesn’t personally affect me (like gay and lesbian stuff, fat shaming/discrimination, poverty), I recognize that my lack of understanding/ empathy has nothing to do with how valid those issues are. My opinion on the subject shouldn’t carry the same weight as someone who is personally affected by it. Because I’ll always have a blind-spot. There will always be a part of me that doesn’t really get it. If I want to participate in the discourse, I need to do more listening than pontificating and lecturing. Because I’m not an expert on the subject. And I also know that my sanctimonious advice is not wanted. > > And on some things, I’m not privileged. What this means is that I’m sensitive to certain things. I may not find humor in your jokes, for instance. And it’s not because I have a chip on my shoulder or I’m just trying to give you a hard time. It’s because that I am a member of a stigmitized group, and thus I’m sensitive to negativity about my group. You may not empathize with this, and that’s fine. I’m not asking for you to emphathize. All I ask is that you try to understand and that you don’t belittle me and my feelings just because you, personally, can’t imagine yourself feeling the way I do. My sensitivities aren’t “silly”. They aren’t “rubbish”. They are just feelings that you don’t relate to because you aren’t in my shoes. Agreed, 100%. ---
**Author:** ![SantaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@SantaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SantaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/38 "2015-09-08T07:15:04Z")
There’s a whole discussion on intersectionality about how some folks can be privileged in some ways and not in others. On a less reverent note, there is [this](http://www.critical-theory.com/gawker-literally-hosting-oppression-olympics/): ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/39 "2015-09-08T09:03:21Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Privilege is never having to think about your identity. God forbid you’re made to think. And do you think there’s a single person on this globe which checks all your bullet points? I’m pretty sure even Obama – the most powerful man alive – wakes up some mornings feeling inadequate, unloved, unappreciated, and pissed off because his wife was ogling that secret service guy with the big biceps and Putin wasn’t validating his political views. Being met with obstacles in all walks of life is just a fact of life. Although a bit ironic that you showcase the stereotype of low expectations, as that is precisely what comes from people cuddling and validating people when they should be opposing and challenging them. We grow in opposition, suffocate in validation. You also seem to be under the misunderstanding that opinions, beliefs and (god save us!) political concepts should be validated. That’s perhaps what the toxic ideology of safe spaces will do to you, but unless you want live in an echo chamber opinions and beliefs should be vigorously challenged. If they’re worth their salt they’ll weather a bit of storm, if not they probably weren’t worth shit anyway. Otherwise you get you’re your program and start validating my opinions. Your feelings aren’t sacred either and have no demand to be validated by anyone. Otherwise go buy a puppy; it’ll love you unconditionally, validate the shit out of you and never challenge your views. Another thing is, much of this just comes off as a version of a fallacy of appealing to authority – the authority of underprivilege. Ideas have no source and they’re not in the least given unique privileged strength from coming from a person who seems himself as uniquely unprivileged. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > Agreed, 100%. Well there’s your unconditional validation. Congratulation, you are now a person of privelege. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/40 "2015-09-08T09:28:49Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > God forbid you’re made to think. And do you think there’s a single person on this globe which checks all your bullet points? I’m pretty sure even Obama – the most powerful man alive – wakes up some mornings feeling inadequate, unloved, unappreciated, and pissed off because his wife was ogling that secret service guy with the big biceps and Putin wasn’t validating his political views. Being met with obstacles in all walks of life is just a fact of life. Although a bit ironic that you showcase the stereotype of low expectations, as that is precisely what comes from people cuddling and validating people when they should be opposing and challenging them. We grow in opposition, suffocate in validation. > > You also seem to be under the misunderstanding that opinions, beliefs and (god save us!) political concepts should be validated. That’s perhaps what the toxic ideology of safe spaces will do to you, but unless you want live in an echo chamber opinions and beliefs should be vigorously challenged. If they’re worth their salt they’ll weather a bit of storm, if not they probably weren’t worth shit anyway. Otherwise you get you’re your program and start validating my opinions. Your feelings aren’t sacred either and have no demand to be validated by anyone. > > Otherwise go buy a puppy; it’ll love you unconditionally, validate the shit out of you and never challenge your views. > > Another thing is, much of this just comes off as a version of a fallacy of appealing to authority – the authority of underprivilege. Ideas have no source and they’re not in the least given unique privileged strength from coming from a person who seems himself as uniquely unprivileged. > > Well there’s your unconditional validation. Congratulation, you are now a person of privelege. [Iphone](http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/july/hands-craigslist-study-071910.html) [Car](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyMuLGXxTs) [Bike](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-v2n62C9k) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256.md?page=3)