# Who's privileged? Who's unprivileged? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256 "2015-09-07T17:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/41 "2015-09-08T11:03:59Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > God forbid you’re made to think. And do you think there’s a single person on this globe which checks all your bullet points? I’m pretty sure even Obama – the most powerful man alive – wakes up some mornings feeling inadequate, unloved, unappreciated, and pissed off because his wife was ogling that secret service guy with the big biceps and Putin wasn’t validating his political views. Being met with obstacles in all walks of life is just a fact of life. Although a bit ironic that you showcase the stereotype of low expectations, as that is precisely what comes from people cuddling and validating people when they should be opposing and challenging them. We grow in opposition, suffocate in validation. > > You also seem to be under the misunderstanding that opinions, beliefs and (god save us!) political concepts should be validated. That’s perhaps what the toxic ideology of safe spaces will do to you, but unless you want live in an echo chamber opinions and beliefs should be vigorously challenged. If they’re worth their salt they’ll weather a bit of storm, if not they probably weren’t worth shit anyway. Otherwise you get you’re your program and start validating my opinions. Your feelings aren’t sacred either and have no demand to be validated by anyone. > > Otherwise go buy a puppy; it’ll love you unconditionally, validate the shit out of you and never challenge your views. > > Another thing is, much of this just comes off as a version of a fallacy of appealing to authority – the authority of underprivilege. Ideas have no source and they’re not in the least given unique privileged strength from coming from a person who seems himself as uniquely unprivileged. > > Well there’s your unconditional validation. Congratulation, you are now a person of privelege. Your reply is a strange (mis)interpretation of what **monstro** wrote. She precisely says that, if you have privilege, you should be subject to have your ideas questioned, and you should be open to criticism and challenge. She also admits to have privilege in some areas. Almost everyone has some privilege. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/42 "2015-09-08T11:05:02Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Yeah, vastly disproportionately victims of violent crimes committed by members of their own gender. :dubious: So would that be a yes or a no? Are these factors a significant axis of privilege or not? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/43 "2015-09-08T15:45:29Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > So would that be a yes or a no? Are these factors a significant axis of privilege or not? Sure, its significant in that shows that men, as a group, are so privileged that they can do the most victimizing of all groups combined, not only heaping more abuse on the non-privileged (women, and children) than those groups do each other and amongst themselves but of weaker members of the privileged group as well. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/44 "2015-09-08T16:06:09Z")
At the risk of oversimplifying, I think society broadly classifies things as follows: \*\*“Privileged”: \*\* White, men, Christians, thin, wealthy, tall, attractive, straight \*\* “Un-Privileged”: \*\* Non-white, women, LGBT, short, fat, impoverished, Muslim or non-Christian religions Of course, it gets complicated in real life since there’s often overlap. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/45 "2015-09-08T16:26:46Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Your reply is a strange (mis)interpretation of what **monstro** wrote. > > She precisely says that, if you have privilege, you should be subject to have your ideas questioned, and you should be open to criticism and challenge. She also admits to have privilege in some areas. Almost everyone has some privilege. Thank you. His post is so over-the-top wrong that I can’t be bothered with it. Another way of looking at privilege: There are a lot of issues out there that I really do find stupid. Like, I don’t know why women feel so much pressure to look a certain way. So what if magazine advertisements don’t feature bodies that look like yours? Stop looking for validation from external sources, people! I mean, I get it on an intellectual level. But I still think it’s stupid. Now why do I think it’s stupid? Is it because I’m just fundamentally better than those “silly” women who do worry about their looks? No. I’m not “above the fray” because I have angel wings. It’s because I enjoy a degree of privilege. No one’s ever called me ugly before or put me down because I look a certain way. Even if I did have a history of abuse, I have a lot going for me besides my looks. I don’t care what men think, because I’m not emotionally invested in men’s opinions. Personality-wise, I don’t give a fuck about lots of stuff. That doesn’t make me awesome. It just means I tune extraneous information out really well. Does being privileged in this way mean that I can’t have an opinion about beauty standards? No, of course not. But it does mean that when I encounter a discussion about lookism and unreality beauty standards, maybe–just maybe–I shouldn’t be the first person grabbing the microphone. If someone asks for my opinion, maybe–just maybe–I should admit that while I “don’t get it”, that doesn’t mean those other folks are talking out of their asses. Because they may be seeing things that my privilege keeps me from seeing. Maybe if I were them, I’d feel the same way they feel. I swear. People act like this is so hard to understand, but it really isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/46 "2015-09-09T04:20:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Privilege is never having to think about your identity. > > It means never having to worry about being discriminated against for who you are. > > It means never being afraid that you’re fulfilling stereotypes or low expectations. > > It means never having to be told that you’re being hysterical or hypersensitive. > > It means always having your opinions, your feelings, your beliefs validated by others. > > It means being able to dismiss a political concept as “rubbish” just because you don’t think it affects you. Thank you for taking time to write out a thoughtful response. I always appreciate reading what you write, whether or not I agree with it. As I said in my first post, there are many kinds of privilege. There’s material privilege, family privilege, social privilege, etc… Each of those could then be broken down into countless specific instances. Deciding who’s privileged in part depends on which are considered most important. To me it’s self-evident that material privilege is the most important kind. Having adequate food, safe drinking water, a good home, clothing, medicine, and the like, when millions past and present lacked such things, is a massive privilege. This in no ways denies that social privilege issues exist, but it does help keep them in perspective. Things like “It means always having your opinions, your feelings, your beliefs validated by others” don’t seem correct to me. Does anyone always have their opinions, feelings, and beliefs validated by others? If so, they must have a very sheltered existence. Having people disagree with oneself is part of being human. To say that anyone is unprivileged because they don’t have everyone in agreement with them is to create an unreasonable expectation. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/47 "2015-09-09T06:25:11Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Things like “It means always having your opinions, your feelings, your beliefs validated by others” don’t seem correct to me. > [@](#): > > Having people disagree with oneself is part of being human. To say that anyone is unprivileged because they don’t have everyone in agreement with them is to create an unreasonable expectation. To me, there’s a difference between being disagreed with and being invalidated. To me, being disagreed with means that someone has listened to my opinion or argument, taken it into consideration and evaluated it, and responded to it based on the merits of the opinion or argument. Being invalidated means that the person dismissed and tuned out my words out of hand before they ever got to the content. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/48 "2015-09-09T11:32:02Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Sure, its significant in that shows that men, as a group, are so privileged that they can do the most victimizing of all groups combined, not only heaping more abuse on the non-privileged (women, and children) than those groups do each other and amongst themselves but of weaker members of the privileged group as well. Good to know that African-Americans and the poor are not significantly disprivelaged, then. On account of all the violence. Or perhaps you’d like to walk back the claim that privileged people do violence a little? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/49 "2015-09-09T11:38:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right – talk to everyone. Most white people do not report having been mistreated by police; a [much higher percentage](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/poll-majority-black-americans-report-unfair-treatment-police) of black people report that they have been mistreated by police. **robertliguori** , you never responded to this – do you agree that it’s reasonable to believe that black people are mistreated above a “base rate”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/50 "2015-09-09T12:35:01Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > To me, being disagreed with means that someone has listened to my opinion or argument, taken it into consideration and evaluated it, and responded to it based on the merits of the opinion or argument. Being invalidated means that the person dismissed and tuned out my words out of hand before they ever got to the content. So if someone listens to your opinion or argument and responds on the merits after evaluating the statement itself, that’s mere disagreement – but if someone tunes you out with a dismissive _“you can’t know what it’s like”_ or a brief _“check your privilege”_ instead of considering the content of your statement, that’s invalidation? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/51 "2015-09-09T13:40:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **robertliguori** , you never responded to this – do you agree that it’s reasonable to believe that black people are mistreated above a “base rate”? [Maybe?](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/25/race-and-justice-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/) I don’t know. Almost certainly, in many areas, almost certainly not in others. Hmm. Actually, let me clarify. Yes. It is reasonable to believe that. There are many examples of it happening, there is a clear aveneue for it to happen systematically, and formal studies show a resounding “It’s complicated.”, so I think this is an entirely reasonable belief to hold, even if I personally am holding out for more analysis. What happens if we factor in that criminals who shoot at police officers are overwhelmingly black? If police officers are colorblind, but mistreat poor and violent criminals more often, then you would see mistreatment of black people above the base rate, but you wouldn’t see any evidence of privilege. Now, I don’t think that police officers are colorblind, but I don’t know how not-colorblind, on average, they are. Again, it’s complicated. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/52 "2015-09-09T13:45:43Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > In the United States it certainly is. Speaking clear, educated non-accented English can be an enormous advantage in the hiring process in many cases. > > Now, I think the entire premise of ‘microagressions’ is silly. It appears to be an attempt to tilt playing fields at almost the quantum level and that’s an impossibility. But that doesn’t mean privilege doesn’t exist. I’m a male, white, upper middle class professional in the south. I have every possible privilege there can be down here whether I want it or not. I just set up shop in a small town and the mayor - without knowing me more than an hour - just asked me to run the local merchant’s association. Now, I know there may be an element of better-him-than-me to that, but still, you think there might not be someone more plugged in than me for the role? > > Anyway, I’m certainly privileged. All I can do is be aware of it and hope to stay on top of such things where I can. You might want to check into that job before you do accept. Chances you were asked because nobody else wants to do it. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/53 "2015-09-09T14:04:38Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I have studied the Male Privilege thoroughly. > > How privileged is a male victim of domestic violence, who faces [severe discrimination](http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf)? > > Is it a privilege to get 63% more prison time for the same offense? > > Is it male privilege to be subject to constant male bashing in the media? Given the recent headlines about Women’s Health Services, I was curious if I could find out if there was a difference between government spending on women’s vs. men’s health. I wasn’t able to find a good answer. (Perhaps because there’s no such thing as Men’s Health Services.) [I did find this old study though](http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/1/153.abstract): (from the abstract) “in 2004 per capita health care spending for females was 32 percent more than for males.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/54 "2015-09-09T14:18:19Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Given the recent headlines about Women’s Health Services, I was curious if I could find out if there was a difference between government spending on women’s vs. men’s health. I wasn’t able to find a good answer. (Perhaps because there’s no such thing as Men’s Health Services.) [I did find this old study though](http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/1/153.abstract): (from the abstract) “in 2004 per capita health care spending for females was 32 percent more than for males.” Have you considered the possibility that women may require more health care then men, on average, due to legitimate medical needs? I’d be surprised if that wasn’t true, considering reproductive health care. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/55 "2015-09-09T14:49:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Have you considered the possibility that women may require more health care then men, on average, due to legitimate medical needs? I’d be surprised if that wasn’t true, considering reproductive health care. Hmm. Women are less healthy than men, by a spending factor of 34%? Well, that many extra sick days would explain the 5% wage gap several times over. But hey, I think we can resolve this. We can see if there are any ailments which disproportionately affect women, and see if they’re given funding and attention disproportionate with the harm they cause relative to more gender-neutral ailments. Any takers for suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/56 "2015-09-09T15:18:49Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Hmm. Women are less healthy than men, by a spending factor of 34%? And then they live longer! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/57 "2015-09-09T15:23:29Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Hmm. Women are less healthy than men, by a spending factor of 34%? I’ve got a very tricky math problem for you. My wife and I have two daughters. During each of her pregnancies, there were at least eight medical visits, including 2 nights in a hospital. The question is two-part: 1. Which of us had more medical appointments during this time? 2. Which of us had higher medical bills related to the birth of our children? There’s a challenge question, too: 3) In general, when a child is born, does the father or the mother incur thousands of dollars of medical expenses? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/58 "2015-09-09T16:28:08Z")
My main issue with it is entirely syntactical; it’s not an either/or situation of privileged or under/non privileged. It’s entirely possible for there to be a group that’s neither privileged nor underprivileged. When 70% of the population has something, and 30% does not, by the very definition of the word that **ITR Champion** posted, the 70% is not “privileged”. They’re the status quo- the baseline. Neither here nor there. They don’t have anything that _most_ other people don’t have, and nor do they lack anything either. That’s my problem- the implication that white people are privileged is absurd- by sheer numbers, we define the baseline. Some people are privileged relative to that baseline, and some are underprivileged. And trying to make it an either/or situation implies that if you’re not some kind of minority or other put-upon group, then you’re “privileged” is somewhat offensive. To use the John Scalzi metaphor, white male is really the “Normal” difficulty, and there are easier and harder difficulty levels in the game, as there are richer, more influential people, families, locations, etc… and there are ones that are less so. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/59 "2015-09-09T16:37:53Z")
> [@bump](#): > > To use the John Scalzi metaphor, white male is really the “Normal” difficulty, and there are easier and harder difficulty levels in the game, as there are richer, more influential people, families, locations, etc… and there are ones that are less so. If white male is the “normal” difficulty, what’s “easy”? I’m not convinced majority = baseline. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/60 "2015-09-09T16:53:42Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Hmm. Women are less healthy than men, by a spending factor of 34%? Who said less healthy? Requiring more health care doesn’t necessarily mean “less healthy” – a pregnant woman requires more health care than a non-pregnant woman, all else equal, but she’s not “less healthy”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256.md?page=4)