# Who's privileged? Who's unprivileged? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256 "2015-09-07T17:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/121 "2015-09-18T17:32:31Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > And yet your hypotheticals all seem to generalize the same way. It’s certainly welcome to hear that you think that not all perceived instances of discrimination are discrimination, but there’s not much use in accepting exceptions when you privilege the hypothesis. I disagree that my hypotheticals generalize in the same way. > [@](#): > > And in my experience, what has happened in America over the past few decades is that discrimination which people are eager to call discrimination has been driven underground and made unprovable, because of the very many high-profile cases of it getting stepped on hard, while discrimination in favor of what you interestingly term stigmatized groups has grown and is now generally accepted. If a student said that they were denied admittance to the college of their choice because of their racial make-up, would you dismiss them as a whiner today? Would you have done so 20 or 50 years in the past? I don’t accept any claim on its face. Neither am I in the habit of calling people “whiners” for merely pointing out unfairness. I disagree that discrimination against stigmitized racial minorities has taken a back seat to the discrimination that favors them. To believe this is to deny decades worth of research showing otherwise. You don’t have to be “unprivileged” to believe this. Just appreciating the facts on the ground is sufficient enough. > [@](#): > > And if you are strongly against race-based discrimination in hiring and college admissions, great! Unfortunately, the law isn’t. And yet, discrimination against one set of people gets categorized as microagressions and given serious treatment by establishments like colleges and corporations, while discrimination against other people…doesn’t. I’m not strongly against race-based discrimination. I think racial background, in a limited set of circustances, would qualify as a credential, because one’s racial background can carry with it cultural currency. For instance, if I’m trying to find a counselor for a program targeting black males who are at-risk, I would not want to completely ignore the racial background or the gender of the applicants. All other things the same, I think a black male would be a more ideal candidate than a white woman for this particular assignment. But I would take a different view if I were hiring for an accountant. Or even the director of the program. I think it is the privileged position to say that “all race discrimination is equally unfair” and to believe that a color blind hiring policy will create a color-blind world. > [@](#): > > And again, the idea that minorities could the be privileged ones doesn’t even get examined. Get examined by whom? What’s stopping you or anyone else from examining this minority privilege you think is being covered up? > [@](#): > > And this isn’t to say that there isn’t a huge amount of traditional racism and sexism to be addressed, with large real-world impacts. But the concept of privilege itself, when applied to its own context, ends up looking rather self-defeating. Perhaps. Or perhaps people really do grok the concept, but they continue to dig in their heels and insist that it’s wrong. They can’t really articulate why it’s wrong or why it makes them defensive. But they just know it has to be “self-defeating”, and they will continue to tell the angry minorities this until they shut up. > [@](#): > > Then I hereby declare with the power of my privilege that there is a reality-based community, based on actual reality, and that you are hereby involuntarily inducted into it, and that your reality shall hereby be determined by physical laws and not your perception of them. (If this involves you stumbling over rocks you had previously ignored and thereby made to not exist, you have my apologies.) I don’t know what to make of this jibberish. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/122 "2015-09-18T17:43:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > What is wrong with telling him that he might feel differently about the entire matter if it weren’t for the privilege he enjoys? Yes, doing so will likely make him defensive. But so what, if he realizes that his emotional blindspot is getting in the way of his being supportive? Nothing at all, except for the term ‘privilege’. Never criticize someone until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes and all that. And I think that someone would likely speak up and say that he might think differently if he was a midget. But most people would bristle at being described as “privileged” for not being a midget. Only in certain groups at certain universities is that a common way to describe that situation. I realize that in those circles, “privilege” is a sort of shorthand to describe one’s particular advantageous circumstances relative to people without those same circumstances, but that’s not the common usage. Common usage tends to imply some kind of unearned distinction or advantage, and that’s why people react so negatively. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/123 "2015-09-18T17:48:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Nor did I say they were; you originally talked about lecturing or scolding… I talked about lecturing and scolding _in a specific context_. The context where someone is discussing their feelings, and another person says “SUCK IT UP.” Please go back and reread what I wrote. You are arguing a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/124 "2015-09-18T18:02:02Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Nothing at all, except for the term ‘privilege’. Never criticize someone until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes and all that. And I think that someone would likely speak up and say that he might think differently if he was a midget. > > But most people would bristle at being described as “privileged” for not being a midget. Only in certain groups at certain universities is that a common way to describe that situation. I realize that in those circles, “privilege” is a sort of shorthand to describe one’s particular advantageous circumstances relative to people without those same circumstances, but that’s not the common usage. > > Common usage tends to imply some kind of unearned distinction or advantage, and that’s why people react so negatively. Well, I’m not a fan of the word “privilege” myself. But I think whatever word or phrasing you used, the target would act defensively. It’s just like if you have a sibling who you believe is your parent’s favorite. How do you talk to them about their favored status without eliciting a negative reaction? Most “golden children” reflexively deny their status. You can use a lot of delicate phrasing, but the end result will always be some butthurt and defensiveness. I know that when someone says “That’s easy for you to say…”, I always roll my eyes, inwardly at least. They could be 100% right. But just hearing those words pisses me off. There’s no way around this except to try to appreciate that feelings aren’t a stand-in for truth. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/125 "2015-09-18T21:06:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I know that when someone says “That’s easy for you to say…”, I always roll my eyes, inwardly at least. They could be 100% right. But just hearing those words pisses me off. Definitely. I’m just saying that using the word “privilege” throws another whole layer of annoyance and WTF? onto it for a whole lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/126 "2015-09-19T00:14:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I talked about lecturing and scolding _in a specific context_. The context where someone is discussing their feelings, and another person says “SUCK IT UP.” That happens to white people too: we don’t just get lectured and scolded by black people in other contexts, we get lectured and scolded by black people in that specific one. > [@](#): > > Please go back and reread what I wrote. You are arguing a strawman. You wrote: _“I think the one thing that unifies the experience of members of stigmitized minority groups is having to be lectured to and scolded by people who are not in those groups.”_ Minus context, that’s an experience both white people and black people have had. In the context of discussing feelings and someone saying “SUCK IT UP” – well, that’s _also_ an experience both white people and black people have had. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/127 "2015-09-20T05:42:09Z")
There are priveleged groups and unprivileged groups. Privileged groups include those who are connected to the state. The closeness of your connection to the state is correlated with how privileged you are. Barack Obama has unbelievable privileges. The lower economic strata of society do not. Mr. Obama has the privilege to command the death by unmanned aerial vehicle of anyone he wishes. Another is to have a lapdog media give him a pass on it. The politically unconnected lack the resources and legal prerogative to carry out such a felicitous endeavor, nor do they have the ability to cow whistleblowers and journalists through threats of expensive and practically difficult imprisonment. (One would hope the politically unconnected, or anyone for that matter, would also lack the cowardice exhibited in those actions) Still another privilege of Mr. Obama is to exact a tribute, the sum of which is his salary, from every tax paying individual and corporation within the jurisdiction of his taxation powers. The unconnected politically can only receive money through voluntary exchange. These privileges far outnumber in quantity and quality the priveleges of the most powerful kings in the history of the world. They are amplified by the enormous size of the government and the technology available in our time. Instead of focusing on the “privilege” of the gifted, talented, hardworking, determined, lucky, or otherwise successful, in order to bring justice back into society, the focus should be on tearing down the apparatus of the state which gives a few the ultimate privilege of using violent means to achieve their ends. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/128 "2015-09-20T08:14:31Z")
So much was wrong in the following post, I’ll just touch on the highlights. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Mr. Obama has the privilege to command the death by unmanned aerial vehicle of anyone he wishes. No he can’t. It might be amusing for you to tell us how you think drone strikes are ordered. (“General, this is the President. I need a drone ready near Phoenix right now. There’s a creep there I don’t like.”) > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Still another privilege of Mr. Obama is to exact a tribute, the sum of which is his salary, from every tax paying individual and corporation within the jurisdiction of his taxation powers. The unconnected politically can only receive money through voluntary exchange. Your fundamental misunderstanding of human social organization has been pointed out before. So now you’re doubling down by pretending that tax policies and details are Obama’s personal purview? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > These privileges far outnumber in quantity and quality the priveleges of the most powerful kings in the history of the world. Wrong again. Who do you think was more “privileged” – David Cameron or Queen Elizabeth I ? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > the focus should be on tearing down the apparatus of the state which gives a few the ultimate privilege of using violent means to achieve their ends. Examples? Are you focusing on government mistreatment of Cliven Bundy? Or perhaps U.S. assistance that led to the bloody death of Pablo Escobar, one of the greatest entrepreneurs the world has ever seen? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/129 "2015-09-20T09:31:29Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Definitely. I’m just saying that using the word “privilege” throws another whole layer of annoyance and WTF? onto it for a whole lot of people. Also, saying “check your privilege” is pretty much a textbook example of an ad hominem tactic. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/130 "2015-09-20T20:27:16Z")
[quote=“septimus, post:128, topic:730256”] So much was wrong in the following post, I’ll just touch on the highlights. > [@](#): > > No he can’t. It might be amusing for you to tell us how you think drone strikes are ordered. (“General, this is the President. I need a drone ready near Phoenix right now. There’s a creep there I don’t like.”) What limits him? Resources? No. Checks and balances? Lol. It has been well publicized how once a week the president meets with advisors and goes over his kill list. It has also been reported how there is no oversight and how his victims are denied due process. > [@](#): > > Your fundamental misunderstanding of human social organization has been pointed out before. So now you’re doubling down by pretending that tax policies and details are Obama’s personal purview? Huh, Obama is privileged to take a salary through force. His privilege is built into his position, as some social justice crusaders pretend privilege is built into genetic makeup. Nevertheless, he is privileged. I never claimed he was an autocrat, so I don’t understand this criticism. > [@](#): > > Wrong again. Who do you think was more “privileged” – David Cameron or Queen Elizabeth I ? I know that Mr. Obama is more privileged than Queen Elizabeth, which is why I said so. > [@](#): > > Examples? Are you focusing on government mistreatment of Cliven Bundy? Or perhaps U.S. assistance that led to the bloody death of Pablo Escobar, one of the greatest entrepreneurs the world has ever seen? First, the power to tax should be abolished. taxation is the privilege to steal. Imprisonment is the privilege to kidnap. Conscription is the privilege to enslave. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/131 "2015-09-21T19:58:27Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What limits him? Resources? No. Checks and balances? Lol. It has been well publicized how once a week the president meets with advisors and goes over his kill list. It has also been reported how there is no oversight and how his victims are denied due process. WTF are you talking about? The president doesn’t have a “kill list” where he’s out dropping Hellfire missiles on his political enemies. If he’s deciding on drone strikes, it’s in his capacity as the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces, not as Barack Obama blowing up some guy who rubbed him the wrong way. And if you happen to be a combatant in an armed conflict with just about ANY country on earth, due process goes out the window. The notion that these clowns in Afghanistan are entitled to due process is the stupidest thing I’ve heard all year. He gets a salary because most jobs pay a salary. His job just happens to be an elected one with a great deal of life-or-death type power… for certain people. Even if he wanted to drop a Hellfire missile on some guy in Chicago who picked on him as a kid, I suspect that the generals would tell him no, illegal orders and all that. And the rest of it- those aren’t personal privileges of Obama’s or the presidency’s. They’re things that sovereign nations reserve unto themselves, and if Obama’s involved in them, it’s through the capacity of his job as the head of the Executive branch of the US Government. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/132 "2015-09-21T20:05:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Huh, Obama is privileged to take a salary through force. What the flying fuck are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256/133 "2015-09-21T20:57:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What the flying fuck are you talking about? Taxation is theft, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-privileged-whos-unprivileged/730256.md?page=6)