# Who's really responsible for the "thin is perfect" female ideal? Hint -It's not men **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 16, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005 "2006-08-16T20:21:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/1 "2006-08-16T20:21:27Z")
Seriously - Where does this ideal come from? Who is perpetuating it, because it sure as hell is not coming from heterosexual men. Ladies… look to yourselves for the guilty culprits in this fantasy look in the mirror, and stop blaming anyone but yourselves. It’s you! Why do you desire this look? I have no clue. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/2 "2006-08-16T20:27:14Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Seriously - Where does this ideal come from? Who is perpetuating it, because it sure as hell is not coming from heterosexual men. Maybe not, but I sure would be happy if all the straight men who would never date a “fat chick” would send me a dollar… ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/3 "2006-08-16T20:35:59Z")
I’m not sure what you’re implying. That men don’t want thin women? Well, lots do, and as Anne says, often make it clear loudly and nastily. I’d say it was from the media, anyway. Not too long ago women were considered more attractive if they were voluptuous and shapely. Now skinny is all the hype and all the magazines have uber-skinny girls in them as well as lots of TV actresses. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/4 "2006-08-16T20:45:52Z")
> [@Anne Neville](#): > > Maybe not, but I sure would be happy if all the straight men who would never date a “fat chick” would send me a dollar… There a significant difference between being “not thin” and being significantly obese. I’ve been quite heavy at times in my life, and I didn’t kid myself that I didn’t look and feel disgusting (to myself most of all). As an ex-fatty I have compassion for people with intractable weight problems, but I’m not going to pretend I’m attracted physically to obese women who are 100 lbs overweight. They can be the most beautiful people in the world spiritually but being hugely heavy is esthetically and physically a huge turn off. Having said this a women who is say 20-50 lbs past her “ideal” BMI (I know it’s an inaccurate measure of fitness) can still be super sexy, curvy & a tiger physically. When we start getting into 50-100 lbs overweight is when “curves” turn into “just plain fat with possible health issues”. ---
**Author:** ![Carlyjay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Carlyjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carlyjay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/5 "2006-08-16T20:47:05Z")
I am assuming the OP meant “uber-thin”, like the anorexic actresses trotting about Hollywood these days. (Think Nicole Richie, Kate Bosworth, Lara Flynn Boyle). If that’s the case, then sure, I can see that most men do not find that sexy. Which is why actresses like Scarlett Johansson and Selma Hayek are considered very sexy: they are not bone-thin, they have curves. However, those actresses are still pretty thin. And I haven’t heard many men proclaim that Angelina Jolie might be sexy if only she put on 20 or 30 pounds. In general, men seem to prefer thin women. Women will perhaps diet themselves skinnier than the ideal weight for men, however in general, as far as men are concerned, “no fat chicks allowed” is a pretty common theme, if not stated in those words. I agree that the pressure women put on themselves and their peers may well be close to the pressure they feel from men, but trust me, hearing the way men talk about women, and seeing the women they whistle to on the street (especially if it isn’t you!) is enough to prove that overall, thin is in. ---
**Author:** ![Flea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d78d45/32.png) [@Flea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/6 "2006-08-16T20:55:52Z")
It takes a village to hate your body. Sure, maybe some men are into curvier figures, but there are plenty that are not and are very vocal about it. Not so much as “Nah, I like my girls a bit more athletic” but “Damn, man, can you imagine the cellulite on J-Lo?” There are lots of women who take this tack, as well. It’s not so much that there’s a lack of acceptance from a portion of society, but that the criticism is so barbed and cruel from the other segment. No one wants to be the butt of mean-spiritedness. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/7 "2006-08-16T20:58:37Z")
> [@Carlyjay](#): > > I am assuming the OP meant “uber-thin”, like the anorexic actresses trotting about Hollywood these days. (Think Nicole Richie, Kate Bosworth, Lara Flynn Boyle). > > If that’s the case, then sure, I can see that most men do not find that sexy. Which is why actresses like Scarlett Johansson and Selma Hayek are considered very sexy: they are not bone-thin, they have curves. > > However, those actresses are still pretty thin. And I haven’t heard many men proclaim that Angelina Jolie might be sexy if only she put on 20 or 30 pounds. > > In general, men seem to prefer thin women. Women will perhaps diet themselves skinnier than the ideal weight for men, however in general, as far as men are concerned, “no fat chicks allowed” is a pretty common theme, if not stated in those words. > > I agree that the pressure women put on themselves and their peers may well be close to the pressure they feel from men, but trust me, hearing the way men talk about women, and seeing the women they whistle to on the street (especially if it isn’t you!) is enough to prove that overall, thin is in. Again, per my previous post why is the opposite of a model/actress skinny “bag of antlers” necessarily a “fat chick”. Being _truly_ fat is a miserable & un-appealing state of existence. I’ve been there. Immature high school and young college male attitudes aside, I’m talking about about women who are 20-50 lbs over some ideal standard (say ideal BMI) complaining that _adult_ heterosexual men don’t find them sexy. This is demonstrably false, but the notion is clung to as evidence of some sort of oppressive standard perpetrated by men. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/8 "2006-08-16T21:05:47Z")
The very-thin, like Ritchie, are in fact roundly mocked on the gossip web sites. I seriously think she’s having a mental moment that I hope she’ll be able to sort of laugh at soon. Look around on the net and you’ll find many cites for the idea that a 0.7 waist to hip ratio is what is routinely picked by men as the most attractive female shape. It also seems to cross cultural boundaries, as I recall that one study showed silhouettes to very non-western men, and they picked close to that range also. I’ve often thought that so many of these professional models are losing big points in my book for being so thin. There’s also the idea that there’s evolutionary pressure for this in men. I was told by a sports nutrition store owner that when her body fat percentage got down to 17% (IIRC), she stopped menstruating. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/9 "2006-08-16T21:09:53Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Seriously - Where does this ideal come from? Who is perpetuating it, because it sure as hell is not coming from heterosexual men. > > Ladies… look to yourselves for the guilty culprits in this fantasy look in the mirror, and stop blaming anyone but yourselves. It’s you! > > Why do you desire this look? I have no clue. Many men, including some men on these boards, perpetuate the “thin is in” body ideal. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean all men subscribe to your preferred body type. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/10 "2006-08-16T21:15:04Z")
It can be revealing to consider the female images in a magazine aimed at men and one aimed at women. IMO, the latter will consistently have thinner models. It should also be noted that when you ask men what their ideal woman would look like you get a reasonably consistent response that aligns with what’s currently popular. But put those same men in the company of willing women who fall substantially short of the stated ideal and rather few of them turn up their noses. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/11 "2006-08-16T21:22:53Z")
It’s hardly new. The flapper movement dates to the 1920’s. I think it began when women began asserting themselves in roles other than wife and mother. The rail-thin look is the opposite of the “brood mare” look of big hips and bust. There’s also the old tradition of whatever is hard to achieve is valued. Now that obestiy is epidemic, thinness is in. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/12 "2006-08-16T21:26:41Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Many men, including some men on these boards, perpetuate the “thin is in” body ideal. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean all men subscribe to your preferred body type. That’s unpossible! All men think as I do! 😉 If I had to bet serious money on a “real world attractiveness” bell curve for 25-55 year old white, black & hispanic heterosexual males I’d bet 20 -30 extra lbs would be seen as sexier than 20 - 40 fewer lbs. [Regular guys like](http://static.flickr.com/32/39280759_8947623dde.jpg) \>\>\>\>\>\>[Sexy girls](http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/10/02/dove_wideweb__430x327.jpg) [More Sexy](http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/08/13/dove_wideweb__430x315.jpg) [Just plain smokin!](http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com.au/in-the-news/images/img-ad-campaign.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Clockwork\_And\_Candy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b782af/32.png) [@Clockwork\_And\_Candy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clockwork_And_Candy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/13 "2006-08-16T21:33:01Z")
> [@astro](#): > > …[Sexy girls](http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/10/02/dove_wideweb__430x327.jpg) > > [More Sexy](http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/08/13/dove_wideweb__430x315.jpg) > > [URL=[http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com.au/in-the-news/images/img-ad-campaign.jpg](http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com.au/in-the-news/images/img-ad-campaign.jpg)]… Whoa. If the girls featured in the links you provided are supposed to be 20 - 30lbs _over_weight then apparently I have a completely different perception of the what the average weight for females is. I can’t see how anyone could possibly call those girls “fat.” WTF? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/14 "2006-08-16T21:47:19Z")
> [@Clockwork And Candy](#): > > Whoa. If the girls featured in the links you provided are supposed to be 20 - 30lbs _over_weight then apparently I have a completely different perception of the what the average weight for females is. I can’t see how anyone could possibly call those girls “fat.” WTF? I’d bet [most of these girls](http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com.au/in-the-news/images/img-ad-campaign.jpg) are 10-20 lbs over their “ideal” BMI. [Same here](http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat3.asp?id=2287) ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/15 "2006-08-16T21:49:17Z")
I think it comes down to two things. The first, the big one is fashion designers. Every spring and fall, a small group of designers decide what women should look like this year. When they sketch their ideas, the new designs are drawn on unnaturally tall, thin women. When they hire models for their shows, the women are freakishly tall and thin. These fellows are not attracted to the curves of women’s breasts and butts, because they aren’t attracted to women. The other part is the weight-loss industry. The miracle of advertising has persuaded us that normal sized people are fat. Thin is happy and sexy, they tell us, and we believe it. We not only buy the lie, we buy the products they sell. There is big, big money in creating a false ideal and selling the tortuous path to achieving it. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/16 "2006-08-16T21:54:30Z")
I’d prefer “willing and able” to “skinny and self-absorbed” any day. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/17 "2006-08-16T22:01:16Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > I think it comes down to two things. The first, the big one is fashion designers. Every spring and fall, a small group of designers decide what women should look like this year. When they sketch their ideas, the new designs are drawn on unnaturally tall, thin women. When they hire models for their shows, the women are freakishly tall and thin. These fellows are not attracted to the curves of women’s breasts and butts, because they aren’t attracted to women. :rolleyes: No, it’s because a fashion designer’s job is to sell clothes, not to determine “what women should look like this year”. Models are thin and tall because they are human coathangers. Long and thin looks good in clothes, and the models are there to display clothing to its best advantage, not to dictate how “real” women should look. The line of reasoing you are displaying is a big pet peeve of mine. I think if you gave a poll of women and asked them whom they would rather look like, Angelina Jolie or Kate Moss, it would be terribly lopsided. For the OP, sorry, **astro**. I’m one of those evil men who are pushing the “thin is in” ideal. The women you linked to aren’t ugly, but they could all stand to lose some poundage **IMHO**. Personal preferences and all that. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/18 "2006-08-16T22:11:58Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I’d bet [most of these girls](http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com.au/in-the-news/images/img-ad-campaign.jpg) are 10-20 lbs over their “ideal” BMI. > > [Same here](http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat3.asp?id=2287) If any of the women in those pictures have a BMI higher than 25 or 26 I’ll eat my hat. Look - Jennerfer Lopez is often touted by men as having a smokin’ hot hootchie mama body. She wear’s a size 6. The average woman in the US wears a size 14. You do the math. Round booty, boobs = sexy. Size 14 = too fat to date. This is not my opinion - this is the opinion of many men that I’ve heard from. Being a thinish woman, guys seem to feel free to make fun of “fat chicks” around me assuming that I won’t be annoyed or upset. That is totally false, but it doesn’t change the fact that guys cut women up physically BIG TIME. Obviously women do that too, but to suggest that there’s no pressure from men to be smaller on the _AVERAGE_ woman, is false. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/19 "2006-08-16T22:26:06Z")
Of course, men are immune to the reverse. No woman would look at a large man and simply write him off. It’s a two way street. ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005/20 "2006-08-16T22:42:36Z")
I used to post on a messageboard that was mainly populated by college-age males. It shocked me that so many of these young guys considered celebrities such as Kate Winslet and Drew Barrymore to be hugely obese and unattractive. Apparently there are lots of men who think that women are supposed to be proportioned like a Barbie doll (huge boobs, teeny-tiny waist, itsy-bitsy buns). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-really-responsible-for-the-thin-is-perfect-female-ideal-hint-its-not-men/369005.md?page=2)