# Who's rule is this and whose responsible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 16, 2005, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941 "2005-09-16T08:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/41 "2005-09-16T16:31:05Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > We have made a cottage industry out of language, with copy editors to cover up mistakes and lawyers to \*\*pore over \*\* documents to ensure that there are no substantive mistakes. Thank you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/42 "2005-09-16T16:56:37Z")
Coming Next Week: Aren’t We Smarter Then This? If Not, Than I’m Gonna Pit You ---
**Author:** ![Electrical\_Storm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac8455/32.png) [@Electrical\_Storm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electrical_Storm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/43 "2005-09-16T17:06:52Z")
> [@Large Marge](#): > > Yah, that’s right, I’ve started a pit thread on the use of “who’s” and “whose” because I just can’t believe that a crowd as intelligent as the Dopers can’t get this very simple thing right. > > I mean, COME ON PEOPLE, it’s not that complicated. > > I see it every day on this board. In fact, just today in Great Debates: "Or people in Mississippi who’s houses were totally destroyed … " > > and "… a man who’s every single job so far has been political messaging … " > Here’s how they translate: “Or people in Mississippi who is houses were totally destroyed …” > > and " … a man who is every single job so far has been political messaging … " > > Does that make any sense to you? Yah, me either. > > Go ahead, defend this horrible misuse of the English language and criticize my disgust over it. See if I care. 😛 OMG! Your so conceded. Dissing people who’s grammer isn’t as good as your’s. Definately uncool, girlfriend. 😃 (I’m sorry! I’m sorry! I couldn’t resist. Leaving now…) I get your drift, Large Marge. Drives me absolutely batshit as well. But for some reason when I correct the grammar of my co-workers I don’t get the grateful thanks I was seeking. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Meaty\_Beaty\_Big\_and\_Bouncy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Meaty\_Beaty\_Big\_and\_Bouncy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meaty_Beaty_Big_and_Bouncy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/44 "2005-09-16T17:34:22Z")
This thread reminds me of an Abbott and Costello conversation I had: **Airhead Chick:** Whose (Who’s) your favorite rock band? **MBB&B:** Yes. **AC:** Yes is your favorite? **MBB&B:** No. **AC:** Then who? **MBB&B:** Yes. She gave me one of these 😕 **MBB&B:** Who is my favorite rock band. **AC:** 😕 **MBB&B:** The Who is my favorite rock band. **AC:** What do they sing? **MBB&B:** :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/45 "2005-09-16T19:07:12Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > In many cases, it is. There are many, many points on which even experts disagree. Case in point is the perennial “Another think coming” vs. “Anothing thing coming” debate. Clearly, there _is_ room for debate in the proper use of language. Language is not an absolute. It is constantly evolving. You may disagree, but I suspect Shakespeare and his contemporaries would find your usage of the language to be abhorrent. Seems like you’re taking AD out of context. No to put words in his mouth (or fingers), but I think he’s more upset about commonly accepted usage. There’s a fine line between “evolving English” and “wrong”. your example can be best answered by the origin of the phrase. Someone said it first…whatever they said is correct. As to my opinion, it has to be “thing”. Using “think” in the phrase makes it pretty darn awkward. Wouldn’t the easier phrase be “thought”? I can’t say I learned much about (or paid attention to) proper usage in day-to-day school. My parents were both word snobs, and raised me to be an aggressive word snob as well. When I get email that has poor spelling, garbled syntax and awkward phrasing, I’m more likely to ignore it, or harbor thoughts of general stupidity on the part of the writer. I have to think that most people share this opinion, no? AD…continue your Word Nazi-ism. I forget what David Foster Wallace calls it, but I’m one of them, too! -Cem ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/46 "2005-09-16T20:30:09Z")
> [@Meaty Beaty Big and Bouncy](#): > > This thread reminds me of an Abbott and Costello conversation I had: > > **Airhead Chick:** Whose (Who’s) your favorite rock band? > > **MBB&B:** Yes. > > **AC:** Yes is your favorite? > > **MBB&B:** No. > > **AC:** Then who? > > **MBB&B:** Yes. > > She gave me one of these 😕 > > **MBB&B:** Who is my favorite rock band. > > **AC:** 😕 > > **MBB&B:** The Who is my favorite rock band. > > **AC:** What do they sing? > > **MBB&B:** :smack: I’m surprised she knew Yes if she didn’t know The Who. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/47 "2005-09-16T21:20:58Z")
Wow. All this squabble over a post that was made entirely in jest. Perhaps I should’ve included a disclaimer: “The views ungrammatically expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of **Roland Orzabal** , his associates, or the peanut butter sandwich he ate for breakfast.” For the record, my stance on this particular issue parallels my stance on basically every issue dealing with matters of personal expression. You have every right to speak in the manner you see fit, and other people have every right to draw conclusions about you based upon that. If you use nonstandard grammar (as a descriptivist, I refuse to say “incorrect”, as the term is well and truly meaningless as applied to language\*), certain people are going to think you’re a moron. If you wear black leather from head to toe and paint your face white, people are going to think you’re a goth. If you dress in a green jersey with the number ‘4’ on it, yellow pants, and a bigass cheese-shaped piece of foam on your head, people are going to think you’re a Packers fan. However accurate any of these conclusions may be – and whether or not I personally believe it moral for others to draw them – is irrelevant in practicality, because they’re going to draw them anyway. It’d be nice if people wouldn’t make judgements about your intelligence and character based on potentially superficial cues. Unfortunately, and obviously, we just aren’t there yet. Until we are, the consequences of how you choose to present yourself are entirely your responsibility. \*So, in other words, **Airman** , my post _was_ kinda sorta inadvertently reflective of my personal feelings on the larger issue, even though I made it as a joke. I do believe that language is a tool, rather than an institution, and thus cannot be said to be used “correctly” or “incorrectly” at all. If you pound the nail in with the ass end of the hammer, sure, I’m going to look at you oddly…but in the end, your boards are held together just as tightly. Language is a bit more complex than a hammer, and has many more ways in which it can be used to achieve the desired effect. If I speak, and you understand what I said, my purpose is accomplished. Any judgements you make based on _how_ I said it are entirely peripheral. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/48 "2005-09-16T21:24:23Z")
You’re also make free to make similar judgements based on my own inability to code. But I’m sure you won’t, since you know full well that I _meant_ to type \*. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/49 "2005-09-16T21:32:45Z")
> [@Meaty Beaty Big and Bouncy](#): > > This thread reminds me of an Abbott and Costello conversation I had… Please, please tell me you didn’t rip that off from an episode of Eight Is Enough ---
**Author:** ![Large\_Marge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/50afbb/32.png) [@Large\_Marge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Large_Marge)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/50 "2005-09-17T04:12:55Z")
All your clever replies have been a great source of amusement, which is exactly what I needed after the day I had at work today. 🙂 > [@tdn](#): > > Yeah. What the fuck is “Yah”? > > 😉 I have no excuse. Yesterday, “yeah” suddenly looked wrong to me, so I began writing “yah.” It’s in several posts of mine from today and yesterday. > [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > **Marge** , I’m with you in theory, but I have to say, solecistic shit happens. Of course, if a person does it every freaking time, then yeah, they could stand to get with the program. That said, the SDMB is better than just about any other message board I’ve ever seen in this respect. If it happened to one person only occasionally, I probably wouldn’t even notice (ok, that’s a lie, I’d notice but I’d let it go), but it’s often the same people making the same mistake again and again, though not necessarily from the two posters whose examples I used (I haven’t kept track. Who has that kind of time?). > [@smiling bandit](#): > > The funny thing is that I see similar errors in print all the time. Even in books which ought to have better editing. Don’t even get me started. I’d just like to say that “The Search for the Green River Killer,” by Carlton Smith (at least, I **think** that was the title and author–it’s been several years) was so poorly written and obviously unedited that I couldn’t even finish it. Within the first 39 pages, the author had spelled a sheriff’s name three different ways. > [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Forget it **Marge** , you won’t effect there grammer. Perhaps I can “impact” it, instead. _sigh_ > [@Dung Beetle](#): > > One error I’m starting to see a lot is “I was pouring over an old book…” > > WTF? What do people think they are pouring? And what about “piqued” as in, “that story really **peeked** my interest.” Ugh! > [@Excalibre](#): > > Simple rule, folks: Possessive pronouns do not have apostrophes! > > Look, I admit that most possessives do. But just like “his”, “her”, “my”, and the oft-misused “its”, “whose” is apostrophe-free. > > Normally I’m all about defending usages that English teachers condemn. But there’s a difference between simply using casual speech, or speaking a native dialect that isn’t precisely the same as Standard English (as we all do) and just plain not knowing how to write. The distinctions between “its” and “it’s”, or “whose” and “who’s”, are matters of writing correctly, not prescriptive grammar. No one is a native speaker of a dialect that misspells “whose”. It’s nonsense to apply the arguments of grammatical description (“language always evolves”, “this rule is arbitrary”, and so forth) to writing, since writing _by its very nature as a learned behavior and not a natural one like speech_ is largely arbitrary. Using punctuation correctly, spelling words right, and so forth, are essentially outside the purview of descriptive grammar anyway, since linguistics concentrates almost exclusively on speech.\ Yeah! What **she** said! ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/51 "2005-09-17T05:06:48Z")
I love threads like this. I don’t think I’ll ever loose interest in grammar. > [@Cemetery Savior](#): > > AD…continue your Word Nazi-ism. [Nazism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism) ---
**Author:** ![Large\_Marge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/50afbb/32.png) [@Large\_Marge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Large_Marge)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/52 "2005-09-17T05:16:29Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > I love threads like this. I don’t think I’ll ever loose interest in grammar. > > [Nazism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism) I hate it when people loose interest in grammar. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/53 "2005-09-17T05:21:40Z")
> [@Large Marge](#): > > Does that make any sense to you? Yah, me either. Me neither. ---
**Author:** ![Large\_Marge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/50afbb/32.png) [@Large\_Marge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Large_Marge)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/54 "2005-09-17T05:27:20Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > Me neither. “Yah, it doesn’t make sense to me either.” “Yah, it doesn’t make sense to me neither.” You decide. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/55 "2005-09-17T05:27:54Z")
> [@Large Marge](#): > > I hate it when people loose interest in grammar. 😉 I hate it when obsessions about grammar end up in the Pit. Off to MPSIMS… ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/56 "2005-09-17T05:43:34Z")
I applaud **Airman Doors** for his being a “grammar Nazi”. Of course, he should realize one of the most egregious violators of the English language is his boss, the Commander and Chief. Last night, less than a minute into his address to the nation, George Bush said “millions of lives were changed in a day by a cruel and _ **wasteful** _ storm”. This was a _prepared_ speech. Couldn’t he or one of his aides make certain the wording would be better then that? Yes, I purposely threw a few errors into that posting. Therefore, to avoid being “wooshed”, no angry replies to correct my “mistakes”. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/57 "2005-09-17T05:56:34Z")
Lately, I have notice a lot of people saying, “I should have went…” instead of “I should have gone…” It’s very frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![boofuu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@boofuu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boofuu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/58 "2005-09-17T16:07:02Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > That’s not the case at all. To me it is indicative of a larger literacy problem. > > Oh, wait, we’ve had this argument before and I was widely denounced for saying that it was indicative of a larger literacy problem. So please, feel free to disregard what I’m saying. You may all continue to make yourselves look stupid at your leisure. Now that is hyperbole. I am a literacy volunteer and the statistics in my area quote 24% of people as reading below a 5th grade level. URL=http://www.cfliteracy.org/](Cape Fear Literacy Council) To me that is indicative of a larger literacy problem. If I could only get the readers I tutor to be able to discern the difference between “whose” and “who’s;” hell to get them to read the difference would be nice. I also work in an “inner city” middle school. We held interviews for our [AVID program](http://www.avidonline.org/) which “prepare(s) students in the academic middle for four-year college eligibility.” Almost to a number, every student said that reading is their least favorite thing to do. By least favorite, I mean behind chores least favorite thing. That is indicative a growing problem. In a nutshell. Mostly literate people making careless mistakes while (generally) engaging in higher level thinking and discussion is hardly indicative of an encompassing problem. But I concede your right to complain. I suggest you find a child or adult and teach them to read and not worry too much about adults on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![boofuu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@boofuu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boofuu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/59 "2005-09-17T16:14:03Z")
Oh, I would like to say how cool it is that grammar discussions can invoke both Gaudere’s _and_ Godwin’s Law, at the same time. And that I cannot code : [Cape Fear Literacy Council](http://cfliteracy.org). I will learn to use preview. One day. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941/60 "2005-09-17T17:22:13Z")
> [@boofuu](#): > > Oh, I would like to say how cool it is that grammar discussions can invoke both Gaudere’s _and_ Godwin’s Law, at the same time. > > And that I cannot code : [Cape Fear Literacy Council](http://cfliteracy.org). I will learn to use preview. One day. and I get a kick out of how nouns have become verbs party code email and so forth and the whole ‘yah’ ‘yeah’ ‘yeh’ thing is regional (aurally) think Maritmes, NYC Area, Midwest [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-rule-is-this-and-whose-responsible/321941.md?page=4)