# Who's So Vain? (They Probably Think That Song Is About Them) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654 "2008-12-17T23:59:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/1 "2008-12-17T23:59:27Z")
Carly Simon wrote the song “You’re So Vain” about one of her old lovers. (For the sake of argument, we’ll assume it’s about one specific person.) And the lines _“You’re so vain/You probably think this song is about you/You’re so vain/I’ll bet you think this song is about you”_ would seem to be saying that the epitome of vanity would be somebody who is so vain that they would assume they were the subject of the song even when they’re not. Which raises an interesting issue. Presumedly, Simon wrote that song about the vainest lover she had known. And while her other semi-vain lovers might be vain enough to think she was singing about them, the vainest person of all would be most certain that the song was about him - but he would actually be right. Let’s imagine two hypothetical lovers: We’ll call them Mick and Warren. Let’s say that Mick was the vainest of all Simon’s lovers and she wrote the song about him. Mick and Warren both hear the song and both thing it’s about themselves (Mick may be the vainest but Warren’s pretty vain too). So now who’s vainer at this point: Mick, who correctly believes the song is about him; or Warren, who’s so vain that he believes the song’s about him when it has nothing to do with him? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/2 "2008-12-18T00:19:14Z")
Each is more vain than the other. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/3 "2008-12-18T00:45:29Z")
I thought this was gonna be about Kanye West. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/4 "2008-12-18T00:48:15Z")
The song has never made sense to me. The phrase “I’ll bet you think…” generally implies that whatever the person thinks is wrong. Saying, “I’ll bet you think you’re pretty smart” is usually said just before you point out wrong they are. Singing “I’ll bet you think this song is about you” would seem to imply the song isn’t about them. Clearly the song is about them and therefore the phrase “I’ll bet you think…” makes no sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/5 "2008-12-18T00:54:19Z")
> [@jali](#): > > I thought this was gonna be about Kanye West. I thought it was going to be about giant ants. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/6 "2008-12-18T00:55:22Z")
FWIW, the song is not about Mick; that’s a common mistake because he sings backup on the song. The song is about Warren. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/7 "2008-12-18T01:20:04Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Singing “I’ll bet you think this song is about you” would seem to imply the song isn’t about them. Clearly the song is about them and therefore the phrase “I’ll bet you think…” makes no sense at all. I’m pretty sure Ms. Simon was aware of the paradox. It’s irony (from the ancient Greek εἰρωνεία, meaning hypocrisy, deception, or feigned ignorance), a literary or rhetorical device in which there is an incongruity or discordance between what one says or does and what one means or what is generally understood. Basically, Carly (or the narrative persona she is assuming in the song) is saying, “You think you’re so hot and I’m obsessed with you, and even though you are hot and I am obsessed with you, that’s a pretty arrogant thing to think.” To address the OP, I don’t understand how being right and being vain would be mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/8 "2008-12-18T01:20:54Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > FWIW, the song is not about Mick; that’s a common mistake because he sings backup on the song. The song is about Warren. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Monkey\_Chews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@Monkey\_Chews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monkey_Chews)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/9 "2008-12-18T02:10:45Z")
I always thought it was about me. And I didn’t even think I was all that vain. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/10 "2008-12-18T02:34:04Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > I’m pretty sure Ms. Simon was aware of the paradox. It’s irony (from the ancient Greek εἰρωνεία, meaning hypocrisy, deception, or feigned ignorance), a literary or rhetorical device in which there is an incongruity or discordance between what one says or does and what one means or what is generally understood. > > Basically, Carly (or the narrative persona she is assuming in the song) is saying, “You think you’re so hot and I’m obsessed with you, and even though you are hot and I am obsessed with you, that’s a pretty arrogant thing to think.” I agree with the above - but I think another level of the song is that though the song is _talking about_ the unnamed lover, describing him and his ways, the song is really about the singer, who has seen through his shallowness, but recognizes that even though virtually every thing the song says about the unnamed lover is bad, the lover is so shallow that all he will hear is ‘she’s talking about me - Cool!’ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/11 "2008-12-18T02:38:24Z")
> [@](#): > > FWIW, the song is not about Mick; that’s a common mistake because he sings backup on the song. The song is about Warren. You’re apparently assuming that I was speaking of some actual people. However I clearly said that Mick and Warren are just hypothetical characters. Don’t let yourself become distracted. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/12 "2008-12-18T02:40:04Z")
> [@](#): > > The song has never made sense to me. > > The phrase “I’ll bet you think…” generally implies that whatever the person thinks is wrong. Saying, “I’ll bet you think you’re pretty smart” is usually said just before you point out wrong they are. Singing “I’ll bet you think this song is about you” would seem to imply the song isn’t about them. Clearly the song is about them and therefore the phrase “I’ll bet you think…” makes no sense at all. Exactly. A person who isn’t the subject of the song is actually vainer than the real subject of the song. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/13 "2008-12-18T02:41:10Z")
> [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](#): > > Cite? The [cumulative implication](http://www.carlysimon.com/vain/vain.htm) is that it’s about Warren Beatty. And, the funny thing, Warren Beatty thinks it’s about him, which, even if she didn’t write it that way, kinda \*makes \*it about him. ---
**Author:** ![Runs\_With\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/278dde/32.png) [@Runs\_With\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Runs_With_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/14 "2008-12-18T04:27:33Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > The [cumulative implication](http://www.carlysimon.com/vain/vain.htm) is that it’s about Warren Beatty. And, the funny thing, Warren Beatty thinks it’s about him, which, even if she didn’t write it that way, kinda \*makes \*it about him. Wow…After reading through all those interview clips, I now know who is the most vain, and it ain’t Mick or Warren. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/15 "2008-12-18T04:30:01Z")
> [@Monkey\_Chews](#): > > I always thought it was about me. Don’t you? Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/16 "2008-12-18T04:32:33Z")
You all realize that last year, Carly auctioned off the knowledge of who the song was about, right? On the condition that the lucky winner not tell anyone? He said the subject of the song had an E in his name. Which unfortunately does not help us here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/17 "2008-12-18T04:40:35Z")
I write songs and problem non-songwriters don’t quite realize is you often start out with an idea and it takes a life of its own. For instance, Simon may have started out thinking about Warren Beatty and wrote a line and then got stuck for a rhyme and thus thought of someone else and got the rhyme. Then suddenly the song starts veering all over the place. In additon not all words are singable. So you may have to change things around a bit to get the words sounding correct Most likely Simon started out writing about someone’s qualities then used poetic license to get the song in format she liked ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/18 "2008-12-18T05:17:20Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > You all realize that last year, Carly auctioned off the knowledge of who the song was about, right? On the condition that the lucky winner not tell anyone? > > He said the subject of the song had an E in his name. Which unfortunately does not help us here. 🙂 According to Ms. Simon’s [website,](http://www.carlysimon.com/vain/vain.html) the auction took place August 4, 2003. In 2004, on “CNN - People In the News,” she revealed the name also has an A. And on “Live With Regis and Kelly,” she revealed a third letter, an R. Which means it could conceivably be about Warren Beatty, or Mick Jagger, among others. James Taylor would also fit, but she had previously stated it wasn’t him. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/19 "2008-12-18T05:22:36Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > According to Ms. Simon’s [website,](http://www.carlysimon.com/vain/vain.html) the auction took place August 4, 2003. In 2004, on “CNN - People In the News,” she revealed the name also has an A. And on “Live With Regis and Kelly,” she revealed a third letter, an R. Which means it could conceivably be about Warren Beatty, or Mick Jagger, among others. James Taylor would also fit, but she had previously stated it wasn’t him. And Mick didn’t get involved with the song until he happened upon the recording session and spontaneously sang backing vocals. Hence, the cumulative implication being that it is, indeed, Warren Beatty. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654/20 "2008-12-18T05:32:13Z")
Sheila Weller makes a persuasive case for it being Warren Beatty in her book _Girls Like Us_. Can’t recall the particulars, though – I only paid close attention to the Joni parts. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-so-vain-they-probably-think-that-song-is-about-them/477654.md?page=2)