# Who's stupider? Wheaton college or the woman who wants to stay there? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369 "2016-01-06T23:22:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![2gigch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2gigch1/32/3313_2.png) [@2gigch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2gigch1)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/41 "2016-01-10T15:23:26Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Let’s not ignore the real burning question here: > > Do kids really argue about King Kong and Rodan? I keep reading that as King Kong and Shodan, and I fear for King Kong. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/42 "2016-01-10T15:57:58Z")
The really stupid and pittable aspect of this story is that _Hawkins is right_. Muslims follow the God of Abraham, same as Christians. It is the same god, even if the faiths have different approaches towards it. Also, from a Christian perspective, Muslims really ought to receive more respect than they are getting right now. They face discrimination and slander, the kind of people Christians ostensibly defend. _Hawkins is right_. Of course, if you are a Confederate flag waving kind of person, then yeah, Muslims are right up there with the homos and the darkies as a group to suppress and harass. What I simply cannot wrap my head around is why evangelicals and fundamentalists in general so often resemble Confederate flag waving kinds of people rather than resembling anything to do with anything Jesus said or exemplified. What a world! The people who claim to be the most religious and zealous about doing the right thing are so often the very worst people! Wheaton can blow me! ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/43 "2016-01-10T17:50:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Professorial jobs are hard to come by. Having a nice doss is something worth fighting for, especially when those who would fire you are imbeciles. > > Would you want to give up your security and seniority, because some dipshit accused you of religious heterodoxy? This is important, and bears repeating, especially in light of how academic careers work. Professor Hawkins has earned tenure at Wheaton. Tenure is valuable (or should be – it clearly doesn’t mean as much as it should at Wheaton if they are able to fire her for her beliefs, rather than documented malfeasance or incompetence. But at any rate, it’s pretty much the Holy Grail of an academic career, the reward people spend about a significant chunk of their careers pursuing.) It is not, except in rare cases,\* transportable; having earned tenure at one institution does not mean you will be hired with tenure at another. At best, you might be hired at the assistant-professor level and have to earn tenure and promotion again, sometimes with a shortened timeline; at worst, search committees are simply going to ignore your application, because they figure you won’t be satisfied with the entry-level position they can offer you, and there are hundreds of unemployed new PhDs who _will_. - Mostly, those rare cases involve research superstars who can be hired at the associate or full professor level at prestigious research institutions. People who work at a liberal arts college like Wheaton have, for the most part, chosen NOT to have that kind of career; at institutions like that, the path to tenure and promotion involves sinking all of your time and energy into excellent teaching, service to the institution, and active involvement in campus activities (i.e., showing up to your students’ choir concerts, going to all the panels at the conference your department hosts every year, that sort of thing). Lots of faculty, myself included, are thrilled to take this bargain, but the price is that these activities have very little value when you’re looking for another job, even though they may be immensely valued at your particular institution. Once you’ve committed to that sort of career, there’s usually no way out other than going into administration – which Professor Hawkins is obviously not going to be permitted to do at Wheaton, even if she _wants_ to be an administrator, which she may not. So, assuming that she isn’t interested in a total career change, her best bet is to stay and fight. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/44 "2016-01-10T19:53:54Z")
> [@2gigch1](#): > > I keep reading that as King Kong and Shodan, and I fear for King Kong. Regards ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/45 "2016-01-10T20:04:58Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Not to attack you in particular, but this attitude is why things don’t get fixed. Wah! People don’t like me, so I’m gonna run away and hide! > > I just don’t get it. Sure, it’s hard to stay where you are not liked, and people are intentionally trying to trip you up. I don’t begrudge anyone who retreats from such a situation. > > But that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing to shame the people who do stick it out, who do put their cause above having people like them. Sure, you might think their cause is stupid, but that’s the cause, not the behavior. Do you have a job, **Big T**? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/46 "2016-01-10T21:04:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No one puts baby in the corner! > > Except that is exactly what the will do, and they have every right to do so. It’s a private, religious institution. But she has no right to do anything but run away with her tail between her legs, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/47 "2016-01-10T21:17:13Z")
[QUOTE=] Originally Posted by Larycia Hawkins While Wheaton College can signify that employees sign a statement of faith and adhere to it (and I do), they did not give me Jesus and they can’t take him away. Wheaton College cannot hold me to a different standard, a higher standard, than they hold every other employees to. Wheaton College cannot scare me into walking away from the truth that all humans, Muslims, the vulnerable, the oppressed, are all my sisters and brothers. Wheaton College cannot intimidate me into cowering in fear of the enemy of the month as defined by real estate moguls, Senators from Texas, Christians from this country, bigots, and fundamentalists of all stripes. Wheaton College will never induce me to kowtow to their doublespeak concerning the Statement of Faith, so as to appease an imaginary constituency that clearly knows little about what academic freedom or Christian love mean; or to placate platinum donors to their coffers. Wheaton College will never hear me disavow my religious family tree—that would be the height of academic dishonesty; the nadir of historical revisionism, and a repudiation of the Christian narrative where the central figure is a Hebrew from Nazareth who was despised and rejected, from Podunk Nazareth, who nevertheless set captives free and is still dong so today. Wheaton College cannot place me in a theological corner or a trumped up Statement of Faith Corner. The last time I was put in the corner was the 4th grade and that was undeserved. I won’t ever be put in such a corner again. [/QUOTE] Great stuff. Out-Christianizing intolerant Christians is always a Good Thing. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/48 "2016-01-10T21:18:22Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The really stupid and pittable aspect of this story is that _Hawkins is right_. Muslims follow the God of Abraham, same as Christians. It is the same god, even if the faiths have different approaches towards it. Sez who? Deities are human constructs and there is no ultimate canon. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/49 "2016-01-10T21:23:27Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Sez who? Deities are human constructs and there is no ultimate canon. Not since Disney took them over, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/50 "2016-01-10T21:26:30Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > There are feminist Mormons. There are conservative Unitarians. There are lots of Catholics that would like to see the whole birth control thing rethought. These people don’t want to abandon their entire religion and community because they have a different opinion. They want their religion and their community to get (what they consider) better. Sure, I understand that, people can be very intertwined with their particular community. But, as the punchline of the joke goes, if you want to get to there, you don’t start from here. If you want to have a rational conversation about improvement, religion is the wrong place to start; religions are conservative and based on dogma. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/51 "2016-01-10T23:28:03Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Sez who? Deities are human constructs and there is no ultimate canon. I’m not suggesting taking it all literally. Taking it as a human construct, as the story goes, both Muslims and Christians worship the god of Abraham. There is plenty of support for this view. No? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/52 "2016-01-11T00:18:24Z")
Sure but since it’s a human construct it can be constructed however the humans involved want to construct it. If some decide they want their construct to be that the Muslim and Christian gods are not the same then - for them - so be it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/53 "2016-01-11T02:45:09Z")
In reply to the OP, Wheaton College. The professor is probably dumb as an individual, but Wheaton College, and by extension the whole town, is a concentrated pool of dumbth. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/54 "2016-01-11T04:18:18Z")
I heard Larycia Hawkins interviewed today. You might not get her priorities, but she’s not stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/55 "2016-01-11T05:05:02Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Muslims follow the God of Abraham, same as Christians. It is the same god, even if the faiths have different approaches towards it. Except Christians believe in a triune God, who came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ. Muslims do not. That’s what Wheaton wanted the professor to clarify in a theological follow-up statement, but she has declined the opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/56 "2016-01-11T05:20:08Z")
That’s just details about the properties of the Abrahamic God which non-Christian worshippers of that God do not accept. Are the Wheatonites asserting that they themselves do not worship the Abrahamic God? If so, that’s something that _they_ should be clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/57 "2016-01-11T07:38:34Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Sure but since it’s a human construct it can be constructed however the humans involved want to construct it. If some decide they want their construct to be that the Muslim and Christian gods are not the same then - for them - so be it. Ah, but we are talking about bible literalists. I don’t see how those could claim that YWHW/Jehovah is somehow not the god of Abraham. Human construct? Ok, but it comes from somewhere, and we can all take a look at the sources and see what they say for ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/58 "2016-01-11T07:54:12Z")
Bible literalists [aren’t actually bible literalists](http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=1914). They pick and choose, select and ignore as required. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/59 "2016-01-11T10:56:26Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > Except Christians believe in a triune God, who came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ. Muslims do not. That’s what Wheaton wanted the professor to clarify in a theological follow-up statement, but she has declined the opportunity. Neither do the Jews. and as Malthus in the other thread found, [they have in the past not had any problem](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18996146&postcount=317) with statements that are essentially and even exactly the same. So either they have some how changed their theology or in fact they have what is not actually a theological but a political issue with her, in a climate of american islamophobia. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That’s just details about the properties of the Abrahamic God which non-Christian worshippers of that God do not accept. Are the Wheatonites asserting that they themselves do not worship the Abrahamic God? If so, that’s something that _they_ should be clarifying. yes indeed, either they have to say they reject the Jews worshipping the same god as they (I think political toxin to them) or they are simply making political decisions instead of religious ones. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Ah, but we are talking about bible literalists. I don’t see how those could claim that YWHW/Jehovah is somehow not the god of Abraham. Human construct? Ok, but it comes from somewhere, and we can all take a look at the sources and see what they say for ourselves. It seems clear from the evidence that Malthus has cited in the other thread that there is no real theological aspect to this, but a change in approach on socio-political reasons. That is of course hypocrisy. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369/60 "2016-01-11T11:15:30Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That’s just details about the properties of the Abrahamic God which non-Christian worshippers of that God do not accept. Are the Wheatonites asserting that they themselves do not worship the Abrahamic God? If so, that’s something that _they_ should be clarifying. To whom, exactly, do they need to clarify that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-stupider-wheaton-college-or-the-woman-who-wants-to-stay-there/742369.md?page=4)