# Who's the LOTR? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740 "2005-01-26T11:22:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aegypt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@aegypt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aegypt)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/1 "2005-01-26T11:22:06Z")
OK, a few really easy questions (I imagine) for Tolkien fans: Does “The Lord of the Rings” refer to the One Ring itself, or to the person who controls the rings? If it’s the ring itself, does this imply that it can be used to control the other rings? If so, how come Sauron still controls the Nazgul even though he’s lost the ring - shouldn’t they follow the commands of Frodo (or Gollum) instead? What happened to the other rings that are mentioned in the poem? Are there dwarven and elven Nazgul too? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Mad\_Hermit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5ac83/32.png) [@The\_Mad\_Hermit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mad_Hermit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/2 "2005-01-26T12:08:49Z")
Not being a Tolkien expert like many others on this board, just a fan, I’ll give simple answers, and let them fill in anything I glossed over. The Lord of the Rings is the One Ring. It was created by Sauron to control the other Rings of Power- the ones given to the elves, dwarves, and men. Sauron used the One Ring to enslave the kings of men who possessed the Nine Rings, and created the Nazgul. The rings were just a way for Sauron to do this- he does not “control” them through the rings, AFAIK. The rings made by the Elves are held by Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel. The other rings are mentioned in the Silmarillion, but I can’t find the specifics right now… ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/3 "2005-01-26T13:24:16Z")
It’s been a few years since the last time I read _The Lord of the Rings_, but I’m pretty sure that it’s stated explicitly in the text that “The Lord of the Rings” is Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/4 "2005-01-26T13:42:13Z")
Sauron. His lore helped the elves craft the rings of power and his one ring was made to be the master ring. Gandalf also admonishes either Merry or Pippin at Rivendell when they announce Frodo as the “lord of the ring.” ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/5 "2005-01-26T13:45:49Z")
Found it! From “Many Meetings”, the first chapter of Book Two of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ > [@](#): > > ‘Hurray!’ cried Pippin, springing up. ‘Here is our noble cousin! Make way for Frodo, Lord of the Ring!’ > > ‘Hush!’ said Gandalf from the shadows at the back of the porch. ‘Evil things do not come into this valley; but all the same we should not name them. **The Lord of the Ring is not Frodo, but the master of the Dark Tower of Mordor** , whose power is again stretching out over the world! We are sitting in a fortress. Outside it is getting dark.’ (bolding mine) So that seems pretty definitive. I suppose you could argue that “The Lord of the _Ring_” isn’t the same person as “The Lord of the _Rings_”, but I doubt that’s the case. The only reason Gandalf uses the singular “Ring” is because that’s what Pippin used, and of course Pippin wouldn’t call Frodo “Lord of the Rings” because Frodo only has one ring. ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/6 "2005-01-26T13:57:17Z")
I understand your confusion. The One Ring is the Lord of the Rings in the sense that “One Ring to Rule them, One Ring to Find them, and in the Darkness Bind them.” But all Rings were forged by Sauron, to enslave the peoples of Middle Earth, and in that respect he is the Lord of the Rings (he literally lorded them 😉 ). The confusion is natural, because the One Ring is Ultimate Power, and Ultimate Power corrupts. There are different motives in the book to take the Ring, but those who are tempted and refuse all recognise that no matter what their intention, they would eventually become corrupted and become as evil as Sauron, and so they do not desire it. Lady Galadriel spells it out pretty much. Destroying the ring is the understanding that ultimate power must not be sought or even put in reach of anyone. The One Ring is Ultimate Power, and Ultimate Power only obeys to Ultimate Evil, ergo Sauron - cf. the Ring’s desire and effort to be with his master. Ultimate Power needs someone to wield it, the Ring isn’t any use by itself. Therefore the distinction between the two is blurred and the book may leave you confused as two who really is the Lord of the Rings. They both are, in a sense. When forced to choose though, I would pick Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/7 "2005-01-26T13:57:44Z")
The reason that Frodo, wearing the One Ring, couldn’t control the Nazgul is that Frodo didn’t have enough personal power. The Ring seems to enhance or magnify your own personal power (this is Tolkien’s view of magic/mysticism); Gandalf or Aragorn or Galadriel could wield the ring far more effectively than Frodo, because they were more powerful. The Ring especially seems to provide some power of control, and that’s dependent on the charisma/control of the person wielding it. Also, the Ring could deceive – make you think you were more powerful than you were, because it was trying to find its way back to its Master Sauron. In the book, we have this effect when Samwise wears the ring: he imagines himself as a great warrior, but his common sense stops him from going too far with that imagining. ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/8 "2005-01-26T14:14:33Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > The reason that Frodo, wearing the One Ring, couldn’t control the Nazgul is that Frodo didn’t have enough personal power. The Ring seems to enhance or magnify your own personal power (this is Tolkien’s view of magic/mysticism); Gandalf or Aragorn or Galadriel could wield the ring far more effectively than Frodo, because they were more powerful. The Ring especially seems to provide some power of control, and that’s dependent on the charisma/control of the person wielding it. > > Also, the Ring could deceive – make you think you were more powerful than you were, because it was trying to find its way back to its Master Sauron. In the book, we have this effect when Samwise wears the ring: he imagines himself as a great warrior, but his common sense stops him from going too far with that imagining. The Nazgul are not controlled by the Ring, they just seek it and are drawn to it. They were corrupted by their own rings (rings of power, power corrupts, etc.), and became slaves to Sauron, who controls them, rings or no. The reason that hobbits in general and Frodo in particular are relatively resistant to the ring is because they are unassuming, small, and do not desire power. He simply does not know what to do with it. Invisibility of the ring is an aspect that the Ring uses specifically to attract hobbits. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/9 "2005-01-26T14:17:09Z")
Sauron holds their rings. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/10 "2005-01-26T14:24:47Z")
Also all the great rings of power allowed their users to become invisible, not just the ruling ring. ---
**Author:** ![aegypt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@aegypt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aegypt)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/11 "2005-01-26T14:26:05Z")
Adding to the confusion, in my case, is that the LOTR trilogy was translated into Swedish as _Härskarringen_ (“The Master Ring”), implying that the ring itself is referred to in the title. However, Tolkien had the following thoughts about Åke Ohlmarks, the Swedish translator: > [@](#): > > Sweden. The enclosure that you brought from Almqvist &c.1 was both puzzling and irritating. A letter in Swedish from fil. dr. Åke Ohlmarks, and a huge list (9 pages foolscap) of names in the L.R. which he had altered. I hope that my inadequate knowledge of Swedish — no better than my kn. of Dutch, but I possess a v. much better Dutch dictionary! — tends to exaggerate the impression I received. The impression remains, nonetheless, that Dr Ohlmarks is a conceited person, less competent than charming Max Schuchart, though he thinks much better of himself. In the course of his letter he lectures me on the character of the Swedish language and its antipathy to borrowing foreign words (a matter which seems beside the point), a procedure made all the more ridiculous by the language of his letter, more than 1/3 of which consists of ‘loan-words’ from German, French and Latin: > thriller-genre being a good specimen of good old pure Swedish. > > I find this procedure puzzling, because the letter and the list seem totally pointless unless my opinion and criticism is invited. But if this is its object, then surely the timing is both unpractical and impolite, presented together with a pistol: ‘we are going to start the composition now’. Neither is my convenience consulted: the communication comes out of the blue in the second most busy academic week of the year. I have had to sit up far into the night even to survey the list. Conceding the legitimacy or necessity of translation (which I do not, except in a limited degree), the translation does not seem to me to exhibit much skill, and contains a fair number of positive errors. Even if excusable, in view of the difficulty of the material, I think this regrettable, & they could have been avoided by earlier consultation. It seems to me fairly evident that Dr.O. has stumbled along dealing with things as he came to them, without much care for the future or co-ordination, and that he has not read the Appendices at all, in which he would have found many answers. … I think any fair-minded observer must come to the same conclusion. Also, the Swedish translator later wrote a book called _Tolkien and Black Magic_, in which he accused Tolkien fans of practicing black magic (as well as orgies, otherwise sadly lacking in fantasy fandom). His proof: the Swedish Tolkien society was called “Angmar”, as in “The witch-king of Angmar” - so obviously they were Satanists practicing witchcraft! The trilogy is currently being re-translated. I hope other languages have had better luck with their translators. ---
**Author:** ![EmeraldGrue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dc4da7/32.png) [@EmeraldGrue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmeraldGrue)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/12 "2005-01-26T14:33:53Z")
The Lord of the Rings is indeed Sauron. To add on to **tim314** ’s quote, in The Return of the King, “The Grey Havens”, we see that the title of Bilbo and Frodo’s book is > [@](#): > > THE DOWNFALL > OF THE > LORD OF THE RINGS > AND THE > RETURN OF THE KING which makes the matter even plainer. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/13 "2005-01-26T14:51:22Z")
> [@The Mad Hermit](#): > > The rings made by the Elves are held by Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel. Originally Cirdan (the shipwright at the Grey Havens) held the third Elvish Ring (Narya). He passed it to Gandalf, realising that Gandalf would make better use of it. I’ve always taken Sauron to be the Lord of the Rings. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/14 "2005-01-26T14:53:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Does “The Lord of the Rings” refer to the One Ring itself, or to the person who controls the rings? Remember that the Ring was made from Sauron’s power. The One Ring was quite possibly more the Will of Sauron made into metal than an independant being > [@](#): > > If it’s the ring itself, does this imply that it can be used to control the other rings? Yes, it can, if the wielder is strong and controlling enough. And it can do much more. Even the elven rings, not made with Sauron’s help, were subject to his power. The elven Ring-masters noticed when Sauron put his on, and they hid themselves and removed their rings. > [@](#): > > If so, how come Sauron still controls the Nazgul even though he’s lost the ring - shouldn’t they follow the commands of Frodo (or Gollum) instead? This might have been possible, but no wielder ever had the power to force them to serve. The Ring can, in other ways, do this with almost anyone. > [@](#): > > What happened to the other rings that are mentioned in the poem? Are there dwarven and elven Nazgul too? As it happens, the Dwarves, made from the earth and rock, were nigh-unbreakable by the Rings. Their hearts had little lust for power and they largely wanted to be left alone. At worst, they grew somewhat greedy (though they were not completely obsessed) and asembled the fabled Dwarven hordes, such as the one Smaug sat on. Sauron stole back their Rings, or they were destroyed by dragon-fire. (Dragon fire could not break the Ruling Ring, the One Ring) The Elves who wore rings were both old and very wise (Cirdan, IIRC, was of the _first generation!!!_, ever, period). They were not easily or soon corrupted in case. Moreover, the elven-rings were not made by Sauron, but by a smith Sauron betrayed, and so were not corrupt in that hidden manner. But additionally, such enchantments would have been pointless against elves, who neither naturally age nor waste away. Men were uniquely vulnerable, at least in the sense of becoming wraiths. They were not made to last upon the earth but to leave it, so were given less native power. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/15 "2005-01-26T14:57:51Z")
Well, I was gonna make the same point about Frodo’s title for the book clarifying it- tho indeed the downfall could have referred to either the Ring or Sauron. Interesting thing about the Black Magic accusation against Tolkienites- I’ve read that in Russia there is a group of dysfunctional SIMARILLION fans who seem to have actually built a Diabolist religion around Melkor. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/16 "2005-01-26T20:14:18Z")
> [@](#): > > But additionally, such enchantments would have been pointless against elves, who neither naturally age nor waste away. Quite the contrary, I would argue. All of the Rings (except the One, of course) were originally made by Elves for Elves (though with Sauron actively helping on the Seven and the Nine). Their original purpose was to “stave off the weariness of the world”, to which Elves are, in fact, subject (that’s why they return to the Blessed Lands eventually, because the weariness eventually becomes too great to bear). This only works properly for Elves, but for the mortal races it prolongs their lives (but in an unnatural manner: Remember Bilbo’s comments about feeling “stretched thin, like butter scraped over too much bread”). And the propensity for hoarding was always with the Dwarves; the Rings just intensified that hoarding and turned it somewhat avaricious. But it didn’t make them any more inclined to serve Sauron (at least, not directly: Any strife of any sort serves him indirectly). Also, while Cirdan gave the Ring of Fire to Gandalf, he might not have been the original bearer, and there’s some indication that Cirdan originally got his ring from Gil-Galad. Certainly, Elrond’s ring was from Gil-Galad. Strictly speaking, he was the last of the Kings of the High-Elves in Middle Earth: Cirdan never claimed any noble or royal title, and Elrond is regarded as a wise counsellor and master of Rivendell, but is likewise not a king. Galadriel seems to have been the first bearer of the Ring of Adament, though. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/17 "2005-01-26T22:27:42Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > Invisibility of the ring is an aspect that the Ring uses specifically to attract hobbits. Is this canon? Off the top of my head, I can’t recall any character other than Bilbo, Frodo, or Sam actually wearing the ring. In the movie, Isildur becomes invisible when their party is attacked, and reappears in the water, but I don’t think that was ever mentioned in the books. Are you saying that only hobbits become invisible, or that invisibility is what attracts hobbits to the ring? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/18 "2005-01-26T23:44:50Z")
I suspect that he means that the invisibility power is the attribute that would make a hobbit desire it. It certainly isn’t that only hobbits become invisible when they wear it. The One Ring is called Isildur’s Bane, after all, because it slipped off his finger when he dived into the Great River. At this point, he became visible to the Orc archers, and was shot. Also, Tom Bombadil wore the Ring once, but it didn’t make him invisible. But no one is quite sure just what Bombadil _is_, are they? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/19 "2005-01-27T00:10:41Z")
Gollum used the invisibility to get food, sneaking up behind unsuspecting little orcs iin the mountains… ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/20 "2005-01-27T02:30:15Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > The Nazgul are not controlled by the Ring, they just seek it and are drawn to it. They were corrupted by their own rings (rings of power, power corrupts, etc.), and became slaves to Sauron, who controls them, rings or no. Well, the right person with the ring might have controlled the Nazgul, too. IIRC, JRRT wrote about that explicitly in a letter (see “Letters by JRRT, #246”) to a fan, who asked what would have happened if Frodo had donned the ring and confronted the Nazgul at the Cracks of Doom. JRRT replied that they would have obeyed him as ringwielder, but because Frodo would not have had sufficient strength of will, they would have tried to pursuade Frodo to go to Barad-Dur, where Sauron would have made short work of him. JRRT goes on to say that even Aragorn with the ring couldn’t have stood up to Sauron, and that only Gandalf would have stood a chance with the ring. So probably only Gandalf with the One Ring could have controlled the nine while Sauron held their rings, and even that’s not definitively stated. This is a lovely link with lots of ringlore, and is well documented: [FAQ of the Rings](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740.md?page=2)