# Who's the LOTR? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740 "2005-01-26T11:22:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/21 "2005-01-27T04:28:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Quite the contrary, I would argue. All of the Rings (except the One, of course) were originally made by Elves for Elves (though with Sauron actively helping on the Seven and the Nine). While true, I merely said that they couldn’t become wraiths, in as much as anyone knows. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/22 "2005-01-27T20:28:08Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > While true, I merely said that they couldn’t become wraiths, in as much as anyone knows. Well, in the first drafts of LOTR, JRRT had the hobbits afflicted by elven-wraiths, who’d been reduced to that status by Sauron’s rings. Check out “Return of the Shadow” for an interesting read. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/23 "2005-01-27T20:39:02Z")
Really? That’s pretty cool. Apparently, he canned that before the final version, though. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/24 "2005-01-27T20:46:47Z")
> [@aegypt](#): > > Adding to the confusion, in my case, is that the LOTR trilogy was translated into Swedish as _Härskarringen_ (“The Master Ring”), implying that the ring itself is referred to in the title. However, Tolkien had the following thoughts about Åke Ohlmarks, the Swedish translator: > > I think any fair-minded observer must come to the same conclusion. > > Also, the Swedish translator later wrote a book called _Tolkien and Black Magic_, in which he accused Tolkien fans of practicing black magic (as well as orgies, otherwise sadly lacking in fantasy fandom). His proof: the Swedish Tolkien society was called “Angmar”, as in “The witch-king of Angmar” - so obviously they were Satanists practicing witchcraft! > > The trilogy is currently being re-translated. I hope other languages have had better luck with their translators. It must be a daunting task indeed to translate this work, since much of the beauty of the prose is Tolien’s ability to use archaic English words to evoke a “time long past”. I’m sure there are peculiarities of the English language that only a linguist and a language historian of both English and the language being translating into could appreciate. ---
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/25 "2005-01-28T01:00:04Z")
Who is the Lord of the Rings? One look at Our signature and your questions shall be laid to rest. WRS - You’re welcome. (In a unique departure from Our imperious ways, listen to the experts. They (probably) know better. We have spoken.) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/26 "2005-01-28T02:27:56Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > Who is the Lord of the Rings? One look at Our signature and your questions shall be laid to rest. > > WRS - You’re welcome. (In a unique departure from Our imperious ways, listen to the experts. They (probably) know better. We have spoken.) Gorthaur is a churrrrrrl! Beaten by a girrrrrrl! (Popular Doriathrin chant in the first age, after that little encounter with Tinuviel. So shamed was he that he took up metalwork, and eventually gold and silver smithing and put aside dark lording for a long long time) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![emekthian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecae2f/32.png) [@emekthian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emekthian)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/27 "2005-01-28T04:05:16Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Gorthaur is a churrrrrrl! > Beaten by a girrrrrrl! I find this absoulutely hilarious. > [@smiling bandit](#): > > (Cirdan, IIRC, was of the first generation!!!, ever, period). Is that canon? I know Cirdan is mentioned fairly early on in The Silmarillion, but is it ever made clear that he was one of the elves that awoke at Cuivienen? (And might Cirdan the shipwright be the “reincarnation” of the original Cirdan?) ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/28 "2005-01-28T04:07:19Z")
Morons! It was Bill the Pony. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/29 "2005-01-28T04:47:06Z")
> [@](#): > > (And might Cirdan the shipwright be the “reincarnation” of the original Cirdan?) What, exactly, do you mean by this? There’s no real reincarnation in LotR. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/30 "2005-01-28T13:56:41Z")
Sure there is. Elves get new bodies with old memories (eventually). As far as I remember Cirdan was in mentioned as being one of the elves in the vast thrid host of the Eldar from before the 1st age. If he had died on the march from Cuiven then he would have tarried in the halls of Mandos, and if he had been born on the march he likely would never had been mention as a child. Then he’s mention in the first wars against the orcs and he helds Turgon build ships in the first age. My money is on Cirdan being very, very, very old. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/31 "2005-01-28T13:57:59Z")
Mind you I’m working off reincarnation = new body, old spirit, resurrection = old body, old spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/32 "2005-01-28T21:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > But no one is quite sure just what Bombadil is, are they? Of course we know. Bombadil is Bombadil. That’s all the answer there is to that question, and all there really needs to be. And **Qadgop** , what exactly makes one a churl? I ask because I don’t think I would particularly mind being beaten by Tinuviel. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/33 "2005-01-28T22:02:42Z")
No wait! It was Fatty Lumpkin! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/34 "2005-01-28T23:31:02Z")
Here’s a brief Cirdan bio summary, drawn from multiple sources, all written by JRRT: [Cirdan](http://www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of-arda/Elves-index-tables/Elves/Cirdan.htm) Tho I think the site may editorialize a bit much on some of the statements made. Cirdan was indeen one of the first-awakened. JRRT also named him the wisest elf in ME, setting him above Elrond and even Galadriel. This was due to his extreme experience (OK, age) in part only, but also because when Elendil fled the wreck of Numenor and set the Palantir on Elostirion, Cirdan used it to communicate with his distant kin in the west. He gained much knowledge and wisdom in this way. (Data from HOMES) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740/35 "2005-01-28T23:34:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Of course we know. Bombadil is Bombadil. That’s all the answer there is to that question, and all there really needs to be. > > And **Qadgop** , what exactly makes one a churl? I ask because I don’t think I would particularly mind being beaten by Tinuviel. What makes one an uncouth oaf? I think the fact that he didn’t want to be beaten by Tinuviel, but rather wanted to beat her himself makes him a churl! And since the word is described from the old anglo-saxon word, _ceorl_, or peasant, I can’t help but think of JRRT when I use the word! 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-the-lotr/286740.md?page=1)