# Who's to blame for Kelly suicide -- BBC or Blair? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2003, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891 "2003-07-21T12:53:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/21 "2003-07-21T19:40:17Z")
What this Peter Preston article is telling me is that the BBC used the same tactics it is accusing the Blair administration of, which is “sexing up the documents” by calling Dr Kelly a “a senior and credible “intelligence” official when in fact, He was a boffin working for the Ministry of Defence”. So now the BBC has “sexed up its news reports” with a not so credible source and is hiding behind its legal rights to do so. Very much like the Blair administration has been doing about its intelligence reports boondoggle. Irony is bittersweet, aint it? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/22 "2003-07-21T20:20:57Z")
**X~Slayer(ALE)** - My point is that Kelly – as pre-eminent scientist in his field within the UK, at least – would likely have worn several hats. Sure he was employed by the MoD but that doesn’t mean he didn’t _inform_ Intelligence perspectives when MI6, etc. came to him with Intel for to assessment of their own. If Dr Kelly didn’t do work for MI6 (on at least an ad hoc basis), I’d suggest very tough questions need to be asked. In fact, one could argue Kelly was the loop and everyone/everything came to him. They’re really aren’t too many people with his range skills, knowledge and experience. Second point, fingering the ‘BBC’ for ‘sexing up’ what Keely said is a little like blaming the ‘French’, it’s stinky. This isn’t a monolithic edifice in the sense some seem to suppose, it’s the BBC standing by one, maybe two, of their journalists (for as long as they can . . . .) who made their own personal judgement calls. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/23 "2003-07-21T20:36:51Z")
Bush :wally ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/24 "2003-07-21T20:47:25Z")
> [@](#): > > _by December_ > However, Gilligan described his source as a “senior intelligence official,” whereas Dr. Kelly is a scientist – not an intelligence official. > [@](#): > > _by X~Slayer(ALE)_ > What this Peter Preston article is telling me is that the BBC used the same tactics it is accusing the Blair administration of, which is “sexing up the documents” by calling Dr Kelly a “a senior and credible “intelligence” official when in fact, He was a boffin working for the Ministry of Defence”. Ok, this has come up twice now, both times presented in quote marks, but with no actual cite to back up the quotes. Could that be because it’s not true that Andrew Gilligan described Dr Kelly as an intelligence official? [Here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3003296.stm) is a report on Gilligan’s evidence to the FAC and [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2962404.stm) is a transcript of a Today interview between John Humphries of BBC Radio and Government minister John Reid. Humphries (who may not have known the identity of the source) refers to an intelligence officer, Reid _corrects_ him, pointing out that Gilligan did not give this description. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/25 "2003-07-21T23:04:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avenger \* > Ok, this has come up twice now, both times presented in quote marks, but with no actual cite to back up the quotes. Could that be because it’s not true that Andrew Gilligan described Dr Kelly as an intelligence official? Andrew Sullivan says the BBC sourced a [“senior intelligence official”](http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2003_07_20_dish_archive.html#105875901682915987) on their May 29 broadcast. > [@](#): > > May 29 was such a moment. On that day, the BBC produced a story claiming that a “senior intelligence official” had told them that the Blair government, in the person of Alastair Campbell, had “sexed up” its dossier on Iraqi WMDs against the wishes of the intelligence services. BBC correspondent Gilligan who reported the “sexing up” story was guilty of a [Jayson Blair moment](http://www.conquestdesign.com/html/BBC.html) when the US captured the Baghdad Airport. > [@](#): > > Cut to: Andrew Gilligan, the BBC’s man in downtown Baghdad. “I’m in the center of Baghdad,” said a very dubious Gilligan, “and I don’t see anything…But then the Americans have a history of making these premature announcements.” Gilligan was referring to a military communiqué from Qatar the day before saying the Americans had taken control of most of Baghdad’s airport. When that happened, Gilligan had told World Service listeners that he was there, at the airport - but the Americans weren’t. Gilligan inferred that the Americans were lying. An hour or two later, a different BBC correspondent pointed out that Gilligan wasn’t at the airport, actually. He was nearby - but apparently far enough away that the other correspondent felt it necessary to mention that he didn’t really know if Gilligan was around, but that no matter what Gilligan had seen or not seen, the airport was firmly and obviously in American hands. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/26 "2003-07-21T23:52:49Z")
I’m a little tired now, could someone help me; is that two blogs and no meaningful cites, or one blog, an unsubstantiated opinion piece (who is Denis Boyles ?) and no meaningful cites ? Even though I’m not sure what the difference is between blog and opinion. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/27 "2003-07-22T00:11:56Z")
Just what the doctor ordered. Ftr: **One** \*\*Full transcript of Gilligan’s ‘sexed up’ broadcast \*\* A complete transcript of Andrew Gilligan’s claims against the government on Radio 4’s Today programme, 29th May 2003. _John Humphrys (Presenter)_ Are you suggesting [the dossier] was not the work of the intelligence agencies? \*Andrew Gilligan (Journalist) \* Recommed reading the full text but: “I’ve spoken to a **British official** who was involved in the preparation of the dossier and he told me that in the week before it was published, the draft dossier produced by the intelligence services added little to what was already publicly known. He said: “It was transformed in the week before it was published to make it sexier. The classic example was the claim that weapons of mass destruction were ready for use within 45 minutes. That information was not in the original draft. It was included in the dossier against our wishes, because it wasn’t reliable. Most of the things in the dossier were double-sourced, but that was single sourced, and we believe that the source was wrong.” Now \*\*this official \*\*told me the dossier was transformed at the behest of Downing Street, and he added: “Most people in intelligence were unhappy with the dossier because it didn’t reflect the considered view they were putting forward.” **Two** : A \*\*BBC news report, timed at 17:16 GMT on Thursday, 29 May, 2003 \*\*(assuming you accept it won’t have been doctored): [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk\_politics/2945996.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2945996.stm) “A dossier compiled by the government on Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction was rewritten to make it “sexier”, a **senior British official** has told the BBC.” - make your own minds up ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/28 "2003-07-22T00:16:41Z")
Oppps, this is the Andrew Gilligan/Today programme transcript, belonging to the above post: > **[Full transcript of Gilligan's 'sexed up' broadcast](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/jul/09/Iraqandthemedia.bbc)** > > A complete transcript of Andrew Gilligan's claims against the government on Radio 4's Today programme. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/29 "2003-07-22T00:19:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*I’m a little tired now, could someone help me; is that two blogs and no meaningful cites, or one blog, an unsubstantiated opinion piece (who is Denis Boyles ?) and no meaningful cites ? > > Even though I’m not sure what the difference is between blog and opinion. \*\* The BBC claimed that the USA hadn’t taken the airport at the time we were watching it on TV. The BBC reported that that government had “sexed up” the intelligence based on a single source, who denied under oath that he had said that. Is the BBC more accurate than a blog? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/30 "2003-07-22T00:33:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Is the BBC more accurate than a blog? Thank goodness the Mods and Admins are of the opinion you don’t \*\*troll \*\*because otherwise some posters might get the wrong impression, you sad, silly little man. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/31 "2003-07-22T00:34:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\***X~Slayer(ALE)** - My point is that Kelly – as pre-eminent scientist in his field within the UK, at least – would likely have worn several hats. Sure he was employed by the MoD but that doesn’t mean he didn’t _inform_ Intelligence perspectives when MI6, etc. came to him with Intel for to assessment of their own. > \*\* Whether or not he worked with MI-6 is besides the point. Dr Kelly is not a senior intelligence official. Thats tantomount to saying that Iraq _definitely_ has weapons of mass destruction. If both sides are wrong here, neither can claim the moral justification to impeach the others position. If the watchdog cannot be trusted, how are we to believe the accusations it levels on officials? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/32 "2003-07-22T00:50:36Z")
If the BBC transcript is accurate then Andrew Sullivan was wrong to put the words “senior intelligence official” in quotes. OTOH according to an article in the Times, the [BBC Board of Governors was told that the source was an intelligence person](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-753090,00.html). Apparently the Board put out a statement on July 6 implying that the source was a senior intelligence person. > [@](#): > > The governor, who declined to be named, suggested that the governors had thrown their full weight behind Mr Gilligan, who ran the original report on the Today programme, because of assurances that the source came from the intelligence services. > > The board’s statement on July 6 said that journalists could rely on single sources in exceptional circumstances, such as when they were based on “senior intelligence sources.” > > The clear implication was that the board was convinced that the story in question had been so based. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/33 "2003-07-22T00:54:35Z")
What suicide? He was obviously assassinated. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/34 "2003-07-22T01:08:44Z")
I believe that Dr. Kelly was a senior official, but he himself denied being an intelligance official. (C-SPAN sorry no cite for his denial.) Apparently, Dr. Kellywas instrumental in exposing clandestine Cold War Soviet biological weapons programs. He has been called politically savvy. After watching him though I don’t think that the camera loved him. He may have had a savvy understanding of politics and may have been a gret behind the scenes player though. Here, the NYTimes called him [**’Bane of Proliferators’**](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/21/international/worldspecial/21KELL.html?pagewanted=print&position=) > [@](#): > > **Scientist Was the 'Bane of Proliferators’** > _July 21, 2003_ > By JUDITH MILLER > > Donald H. Mahley, the Bush administration’s special negotiator for control of chemical and biological weapons who traveled to former Soviet biological facilities with Dr. Kelly in the early 1990’s, said Dr. Kelly possessed “that rare combination of technical skill and political savvy that made him the bane of proliferators.” > > In 1989, he was one of two British officials who first debriefed Vladimir Pasechnik, then the most senior biologist ever to defect from the Soviet Union’s biological warfare program. > > “He helped uncover the biggest, most secret and horrendous biological warfare program ever mounted,” said Tom Mangold, the co-author of “Plague Wars: A True Story of Biological Warfare,” which described Dr. Kelly’s role in deciphering the Soviet program. After Dr. Pasechnik’s disclosures, there began a series of exchange visits to Russian and American biological facilities; Dr. Kelly took part in those visits for three years starting in 1991. > > During one of the visits, he badgered a scientist into acknowledging that the Soviet Union had experimented with smallpox at a lab at Vector. The admission confirmed Western fears that the Soviets were trying to develop a smallpox weapon. > > During one visit to a bioweapons site at Omutninsk, Colonel Frantz said, the Soviet scientists stonewalled the Western experts. Shy and self-effacing, Dr. Kelly thanked the midlevel manager who had shown them the facility, saying he knew that the tour had been difficult for him. “And the scientist just melted and said, I’m so sorry I can’t be honest with you,” Colonel Franz said. “It was poker, and David had set that up.” > > He played a central role in uncovering Iraq’s biological weapons program, former inspectors said. In 1995, after four years of denial, senior Iraqi officials conceded that Baghdad had produced thousands of gallons of liquid anthrax and botulisum. > > Dr. Kelly’s wife, Jan, said he had been under enormous pressure, but **in e-mails sent hours before his death, he gave no hint of that, telling an associate, for instance, that he looked forward to returning to Iraq.** In short, this eulogy of sorts makes him out to be a smart crafty old codger who knew his ass from a hole in the ground. He was involved in some of the biggest events at the cross roads of international; politics and biological warfare of this past century. ---
**Author:** ![spanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@spanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spanna)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/35 "2003-07-22T10:12:16Z")
Since the BBC tried to keep his name secret from the start its kind of hard to fault them. If you want conspiracy theory though try this. Kelly knows he has broken the official secrets act, knows he is in trouble. Government keen to have his denial extracts promise of retraction of his statements to Gilligan in front of FASC. These are the “dark forces” he says were manipulating him. Just a thought ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/36 "2003-07-22T10:22:49Z")
It was said on Newsnight last night that the BBC has admitted to some of it’s reporters Paxman on Newsnight was one called Kelly an intelligence source. This they now admit was a mistake. Not one made by any of the reporters who **actually** talked to Kelly but a mistake of reporters/writers on BBC programmes. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/37 "2003-07-22T10:32:54Z")
And by a lot of news agencies around the world. But I’m not sure how wrong that description actually was given that Dr Kelly almost certainly worked for ‘Intelligence Services’ on secondment/as adviser/etc on an ad hoc basis. He almost had to, given their need of top-class assessments of their Intel. He also worked for the UN, presumably he was an academic at some point . . I’m not sure hanging his hat on just one MoD peg is reasonable. But that’s not smearing Gilligan, as his supposed but wrongly attributed (to him) mention of ‘intelligence sources’ in this thread was supposed to do. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/38 "2003-07-22T10:58:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*The BBC claimed that the USA hadn’t taken the airport at the time we were watching it on TV. The BBC reported that that government had “sexed up” the intelligence based on a single source, who denied under oath that he had said that. > > Is the BBC more accurate than a blog? \*\* Irrelevant smokescreen. This is [_argumentum ad hominem_](http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm). You’re saying “The BBC [once might have] got something wrong. Therefore the BBC is less accurate than a blog.” Hogwash. Get back to the real debate - the one that you started. Here’s some other stuff that I think is smokescreen: debate over the word “intelligence” WRT Dr Kelly’s profession is irrelevant. Gilligan didn’t use this word - he said: > [@](#): > > this official, and others I’ve spoken to If the word “intelligence” official got attached somewhere along the line, it’s wrong, but a minor point. Kelly was involved in intelligence, even if he didn’t work directly for the intel services. The implication that Campbell and Kelly met is also [smokescreen](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3003296.stm): > [@](#): > > Mr Gilligan said he asked his source how the dossier had been transformed. > > "He answered with a single word which was ‘Campbell’ (referring to Alastair Campbell). > > “I asked ‘what do you mean, Campbell made it up?’ He answered 'no, it was real information but it was included in the dossier against our wishes because it was not reliable, it was a single source and it was not reliable.” It’s now being rumoured that it was [Geoff Hoon](http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=426545) who leaked Kelly’s name. In interviews this weekend, he didn’t rule out his resignation. The BBC may have erred, but they’re only bit-players in this debacle. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/39 "2003-07-22T13:14:58Z")
Oh, come now. This herring is as red as Chairman Mao’s curtains. We are debating whether Kelly was a “senior intelligence official” or not, with a view to labelling Gilligan an outright liar if Kelly was senior in Defence and had access/input to intelligence reports but was not _senior in intelligence_. This is of an _ **entirely different magnitude** _ to the question “Where did this evidence of weapons able to be fired within 45 minutes come from?”, agreed? ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891/40 "2003-07-22T14:57:41Z")
Couldn’t agree more. It seems Campbell has managed to spin his way out of trouble by starting a debate on spin. Surely rather than focussing on one dead scientist (sad though it is), we should be far more concerned with the hundreds of dead servicemen and iraqis that this war caused. If the dossier was falsified then the war may have been illegal ([cite](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2974632.stm) ). Doesn’t this essentially make Blair a murderer? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-for-kelly-suicide-bbc-or-blair/189891.md?page=3)