# Who's to blame if Biden loses? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 7, 2024, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233 "2024-05-07T18:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/61 "2024-05-08T02:42:46Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The problem with this rationale is that it is essentially railroading voters into voting for the least worst option Even if you’re right, it’s still true that if you given the choice between more or less bad things and decide to choose more bad things (or decide you don’t care if you have more or less bad things) then its on you. Those bad things happening are the fault of the people who knowingly decided to have more bad things. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > even if they have fundamental disagreements, and nobody likes to be railroaded. Thats irrelevant to the OP, no one is calling the electorate idiots is a good election winning strategy. Yeah you can criticize the Democrats for constantly choosing uninspiring candidates, you can criticize the media for platforming trump, the two party system for being crap, etc etc. But ultimately if Trump wins in November it will be because voters voted for him. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/62 "2024-05-08T02:53:46Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I don’t materially disagree with anything you’ve written here I largely agree with much of what you’ve written, too. I guess my frustration comes from not knowing how Biden is supposed to break through with his message of how great he is and how well he’s doing with so many forces arrayed against him. From what I can see, he’s doing everything he can, keeping all the complex plates of governance spinning (Israel/Gaza, Ukraine, holding NATO together, fending off impeachment efforts, steering the economy on an even keel, keeping gas prices low, etc.) even as he makes time to campaign, do fundraisers, give regular speeches and hang Presidential medals of freedom around people’s necks and wipe out student debt for as many as possible. Trump visibly decompensates in the face of a cold courtroom and facing down a porn star and never stops saying measurably insane things. How is this a hard choice, you know? And how can people not notice the difference? The answer appears to be, they don’t want to. And I have no idea what to do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/63 "2024-05-08T03:05:10Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > Except what do we do when one lizard could seriously weaken NATO and the whole post-WW II project and possibly turn the entire international order into a nasty racism-tinged might-is-right structure > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Do you think there is no significant difference between the two choices of Biden and Trump? > [@griffin1977](#): > > Even if you’re right, it’s still true that if you given the choice between more or less bad things and decide to choose more bad things (or decide you don’t care if you have more or less bad things) then its on you. Those bad things happening are the fault of the people who knowingly decided to have more bad things. You’re not going to catch out me arguing that Trump (or any third party candidate) is even provisionally, marginally better than Joe Biden, nor that anyone should be persuaded that this is so. But fair or not, it is the Biden campaign’s onus to demonstrate this is true. The electorate is what it is (and has always been); mostly ignorant of the details of politicking and propaganda, concerned with their own narrow interests of bettering their lot, and fearful of instability in multiple forms. Biden is nothing if not a traditionalist which is what made him the default candidate, and despite that has broken ‘tradition’ in multiple ways toward a more progressive path. But when people are fearful that tradition won’t continue to serve them, they turn toward charismatic options like Trump, even though (or more likely, because) he eschews tradition and decorum, promising his ‘success’ (as fraudulent as it is) to others. You can blame voters all you like, but in the end they are voting for whomever appeals to them. That is either a failure of the candidate or a failure of the democratic system (including a media that panders to celebrity over competence). Regardless, telling people they are stupid or ignorant isn’t going to garner any votes, even when they vote for a candidate who is a demonstrated fabulist and serial bullshitter who has unambiguously incited insurrection and tried to invalidate the results of a transparently legitimate election multiple times, even when he actually won. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > Trump visibly decompensates in the face of a cold courtroom and facing down a porn star and never stops saying measurably insane things. > > How is this a hard choice, you know? And how can people not notice the difference? The answer appears to be, they don’t want to. And I have no idea what to do about it. I don’t, either. And the notion that Trump continues to be a valid candidate—much less the GOP choice—for president is such a mind-boggling concept as to regularly make me feel as if I’ve fallen into a Philip K. Dick novel. It is an absurd level of satire that could not possibly exist in reality except that it is really happening (albeit [not completely beyond imagination](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/08/spy-vs-trump)) but it is also a reflection of how much mainstream political interests of both parties have sold out the electorate for the purpose of being elected to govern. Clinton selling access to the Lincoln Bedroom to Chinese influence is such a quaint corruption that it barely merits notice in comparison to the wholesale abandonment of public interest (again, by key members of both political parties) that it has taken a Trump-level of overtly proud corruption to even garner media interest, and primarily only because Trump says such batshit crazy things. Who should we blame? “The fool or the fool who follows him?” Stranger ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/64 "2024-05-08T03:18:12Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > But fair or not, it is the Biden campaign’s onus to demonstrate this is true. The electorate is what it is (and has always been); mostly ignorant of the details of politicking and propaganda, concerned with their own narrow interests of bettering their lot, and fearful of instability in multiple forms. Biden is nothing if not a traditionalist which is what made him the default candidate, and despite that has broken ‘tradition’ in multiple ways toward a more progressive path. But when people are fearful that tradition won’t continue to serve them, they turn toward charismatic options like Trump, even though (or more likely, because) he eschews tradition and decorum, promising his ‘success’ (as fraudulent as it is) to others. None of which is remotely relevant to the OP. People will choose not to vote for Biden in November for a a bunch of reasons. But that doesn’t change the fact that a Trump presidency and all the hideous things that will result, would be the fault of the voters who chose not to vote for Biden. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/65 "2024-05-08T03:23:19Z")
I’ll blame Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/66 "2024-05-08T03:58:37Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I don’t, either. And the notion that Trump continues to be a valid candidate—much less the GOP choice—for president is such a mind-boggling concept as to regularly make me feel as if I’ve fallen into a Philip K. Dick novel. It is an absurd level of satire that could not possibly exist in reality except that it is really happening (albeit [not completely beyond imagination](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/08/spy-vs-trump)) but it is also a reflection of how much mainstream political interests of both parties have sold out the electorate for the purpose of being elected to govern. Clinton selling access to the Lincoln Bedroom to Chinese influence is such a quaint corruption that it barely merits notice in comparison to the wholesale abandonment of public interest (again, by key members of both political parties) that it has taken a Trump-level of overtly proud corruption to even garner media interest, and primarily only because Trump says such batshit crazy things. Who should we blame? “The fool or the fool who follows him?” I’m not particularly persuaded by this. We have had 12 years of Obama/Biden administrations. I find it difficult to think of members of the Democratic Party more key than Obama and Biden. Perhaps you should illustrate how Obama and Biden in particular have participated in wholesale abandonment of the public interest, particularly compared to their peers George W. Bush and Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/68 "2024-05-08T04:32:17Z")
I could _almost_ buy the protest vote excuse for voting for Trump except for one tiny detail: _There is no “protest vote” column when you vote and there is no “If You care To Make A Statement” section_. If Trump wins your little “But I voted to protest Biden’s policy on (whatever)” is going to be drowned out by Trump’s supporters, and your vote will only show the world that you thought that Trump is better than Biden. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/69 "2024-05-08T12:28:15Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > What do people have to say about politicians like Hillary Clinton condescendingly telling voters to get over themselves? “Hilary Clinton said something I didn’t like, so I’m going to help destroy the US democracy” seems like a weird position to take. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/70 "2024-05-08T13:11:41Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > “Hilary Clinton said something I didn’t like, so I’m going to help destroy the US democracy” seems like a weird position to take. I think the expectation of single votes in a nation of 300 million, that we should have this massive amount of choice, is frankly more than a little ridiculous. Frankly, I have very little choice who I deal with in many areas of my life. My bosses at work for example. I have some choice, but in many areas I can’t simply let my middle fingers fly and have full determination over what I do next. But we live in a time where the elections are actually close. All that matters is the difference between the two choices. If you want to throw your annual four years tantrum about not liking the leading candidates, that the system should be so much more different than it is now, that some fantasy candidate should emerge out of nowhere to make it all better for you, frankly Hillary Clinton was right and you are wrong. Get over yourself. You haven’t the right to be personal kingmaker in a nation of 300 million. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/71 "2024-05-08T13:17:16Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > “Hilary Clinton said something I didn’t like, so I’m going to help destroy the US democracy” seems like a weird position to take. Or “Hilary’s boring”, especially when the alternative was so blatantly and obviously awful. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/72 "2024-05-08T13:18:55Z")
I think that was when she faced Trump. This comment was more recent, about voters who aren’t going to vote or will vote for Trump as a protest or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/73 "2024-05-08T13:59:56Z")
The presidential election is a choice between effectively two candidates. Not voting, protest votes for the candidate that represents your issues more poorly, voting for third party candidates that influences the overall election, all of those matter. Furthermore, the presidential election is not the only choice you will be making in the next four years. You will have the opportunity to make many more choices. Except. Except that we live in a time of existential crisis, where one side is working hard to make sure that these other choices we stand to make over the next four years start to go away. That perhaps even the choice to emigrate to another place to live goes away. So it’s not just a single choice between two people now. You will be voting to take some of your own future choices away. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/74 "2024-05-08T14:09:07Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > So it’s not just a single choice between two people now. You will be voting to take some of your own future choices away. But, but, what if the non-Trump option is boring, or old, and only offers the best chance at global stability? We obviously **must** vote for Trump. /s ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/75 "2024-05-08T14:15:55Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > when something this ridiculous becomes mainstream it is in some measure because people think they are being consistently lied to. > > And frankly, they are; the fiscal deregulation of the late ‘Eightes and ‘Nineties leading directly to financial scandals like Enron and Worldcom, and the mortgage crisis of 2007/8 undercut a lot of savings and retirement investment (that people were forced into by the move to 401(k) accounts) were all built on lies facilitated by the failure of government oversight and trusted ratings bureaus, and since then the public confidence in what government and regular media present as ‘truth’ has fallen to historic lows. 100% agree, but I also wonder if the mindset of “we’re being lied to” doesn’t go all the way back to Vietnam, as it dawned on mainstream America that they’d sacrificed their sons and brothers in the service of a massive lie. * * * As far as blaming the voters, I think that’s reductive. If we’re comparing elections to football, the voters are the field. The competitors’ job is to exert their influence over as much of the field as possible while limiting their opponents’ ability to do the same. So if Biden loses, blaming the voters is like blaming the grass. The real fault must ultimately lie with the Biden campaign. Now … is the field fair, or does it slope sharply toward one team? Do the rules help or limit each team equally? No and no. But the field is the field and the rules are the rules. If your team doesn’t win, it’s their fault. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/76 "2024-05-08T14:19:33Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > So if Biden loses, blaming the voters is like blaming the grass. Can I blame voters for being as unthinkingly useless as blades of grass? ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/77 "2024-05-08T14:21:59Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > As far as blaming the voters, I think that’s reductive. If we’re comparing elections to football, the voters are the field. The competitors’ job is to exert their influence over as much of the field as possible while limiting their opponents’ ability to do the same. > > So if Biden loses, blaming the voters is like blaming the grass. The real fault must ultimately lie with the Biden campaign. Bullshit. You aren’t grass. You have volition and can vote. The Japanese just bombed Pearl Harbor. You’re a member of congress. There’s a vote for a declaration of war. But ah, I’m just a blade of grass and FDR needs to make just the right speech to move me to cast the vote. Otherwise, he has failed. I reject the terms of this argument. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/78 "2024-05-08T14:24:53Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Bullshit. You aren’t grass. You have volition and can vote. If one individual blade of grass does something stupid, go ahead and blame them. If 80 million blades of grass do the same stupid thing, I’d blame the landscaper. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/79 "2024-05-08T14:25:06Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Honestly then, if you don’t think there is a problem between the option of voting for one lizard or another, then you are missing the problem. No joke. The fundamental problem here is that you see the voters’ only role as being choosing between the two lizards. How did the lizards get there in the first place? Where were the voters during the primaries? Where were the voters when people like MTG were first starting to try to get into office? Participatory Democracy _requires participation_. At every level. The fundamental problem is that far too many voters have abdicated any role in laying the groundwork for the general elections, so we get candidates chosen by the most motivated (which usually means most extremist) voters. Then the rest of the voters are left wondering, “Why do we only every get lizards as options?!?” ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/80 "2024-05-08T14:39:06Z")
100% blame Trump voters that refuse to believe the plain facts they see and hear. Sure fox etal told them lies but they are obvious lies. They are racist bigots that want someone to blame for their troubles. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233/81 "2024-05-08T14:42:09Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I really blamed Comey and Clinton for the last one – Comey for his October surprise that amounted to nothing (“Hey, we found a bunch more emails!..Oh, there was nothing new. My B.”), and Clinton for taking the Midwest for granted. > > I definitely blamed Florida Nader voters and voters who couldn’t figure out the ballot in Florida for Bush. > > I didn’t see many people blaming the Left for Clinton’s loss – mostly the stuff I mentioned above. Thread could have ended with this. Trump ran a brilliant campaign in 2016 and Clinton ran a horrible one. I heard a radio interview where Michigan democrats were begging her to visit the state and she ignored them. Compounding this is that democrats are still in denial about why she lost. Biden has so much to run on. The defeat of student loan forgiveness due to people unaffected by it. The spread of anti-abortion and anti-LGBTQ laws (drag illegal in Tennessee? Really?). If Biden loses it’s because he did not get out the message that America is about personal liberty. We have not repealed the 4th Amendment. The Constitution runs this country, not The Bible in the hands of religious zealots. Why was Ketanji Brown Jackson a great appointment to SCOTUS? Not because she’s black. Not because she’s a woman. It’s because she’s a former defense attorney and just watch Youtube to see how the police constantly violate our civil rights. THAT’S the message that needs to get out there. Hell, writing that all down almost makes me want to vote for him myself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whos-to-blame-if-biden-loses/1001233.md?page=5)