# Why a lack of modern military museum ships in other countries? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 15, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189 "2019-03-15T17:58:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/1 "2019-03-15T17:58:21Z")
According to [this website.](https://www.hazegray.org/navhist/gun_ship.htm) in the entire world there’s only 14 museum ships in the entire world outside of the United States of ships produced past 1900. The United Kingdom only has 3, Greece has 2, France has 1 (formerly 2, they scrapped a cruiser in 2007), Canada and Australia have 1 each, and the rest of the countries only seem to have 1 each. While I understand they’re expensive to upkeep, the fact “rich” countries like France only had 2 but then let one get scrapped due to budget cuts seems awfully dumb. If the United States can somehow support dozens I don’t see why the European governments can’t put more money aside for more than one each. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/2 "2019-03-15T18:39:07Z")
It’s probably not at the core of your question, but that’s not a list of all modern ships which are museum ships. It’s only a list of “all-guns” ships, an era which they describe as ending in about 1950. And it’s not even all ships of that era, because I know of at least one WWII submarine which is now a museum ship, but which isn’t on that list (apparently, using torpedoes means it’s not “all-guns”). It may, in fact, be that most nations’ museum ships are _too_ modern to be on that list. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/3 "2019-03-15T18:58:38Z")
Agreed. For example, I know for fact there’s a submarine just outside of Paris (from the 50s I think ? Pretty sure post WW2 - google break - yup, entered service in [56](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonaute_(S636))) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/4 "2019-03-15T19:10:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s probably not at the core of your question, but that’s not a list of all modern ships which are museum ships. It’s only a list of “all-guns” ships, an era which they describe as ending in about 1950. Also, looking at the first list, of the 8 American “ships of the line,” 7 were battleships from WWII – which, alone, suggests something to me about _why_ they were preserved, rather than being scrapped. It was a war in which the U.S. was triumphant, and about which there was likely a great deal of interest in preserving the ships, and their stories, after the war. Also, it’s interesting to note that almost all of the non-U.S. ships on that list are much, _much_ older. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/5 "2019-03-15T19:33:54Z")
Well, after many wars most of the ships on the losing side were either sunk during the war, taken or scuttled. So, for example Germany wouldnt be expected to have many, and of course some nations went thru a “war is bad” phase, and got rid of anything that would remind them. Even the IJN Mikasa would have been sunk or something during WW2, except it was encased in concrete and useless. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/6 "2019-03-15T19:36:05Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Also, looking at the first list, of the 8 American “ships of the line,” 7 were battleships from WWII – which, alone, suggests something to me about _why_ they were preserved, rather than being scrapped. It was a war in which the U.S. was triumphant, and about which there was likely a great deal of interest in preserving the ships, and their stories, after the war. > > Also, it’s interesting to note that almost all of the non-U.S. ships on that list are much, _much_ older. Yes, the USA fought a pair of wars in WWII where the navy was a major participant - particularly the Pacific war. Not too many other countries fought - and won - major naval efforts in the last century, they were mostly land wars. The WWI participants probably didn’t want to keep and memorialize their giant dreadnoughts which in the end were mainly giant duds in the overall war. So if you look at the following lists on the website, the other countries are far better represented. And that does not include submarines, of which I visited 2 in the USA alone. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/7 "2019-03-15T19:41:21Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > According to [this website.](https://www.hazegray.org/navhist/gun_ship.htm)… It does not contain USS _Pueblo_ at the Pyongyang Victorious War Museum/Victorious Fatherland Liberation War Museum (though _Pueblo_ is not a ‘major warship from the “all gun” era’.) ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/8 "2019-03-15T19:51:08Z")
I think the US is unique in having a very pro-military culture AND having a very short history. Which is why we ended up with a lot of modern war equipment on display. When I think of famous warships on display, the first three that come to mind are the Vasa, Mary Rose and HMS Victory. These are older than the US itself. The USA is also a huge country with a lot of land available, and everything spaced far apart. So the US has more of most things. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/9 "2019-03-15T20:04:53Z")
In the US are any of those museums maintained by the government or are the all owned by private entities? Now that I think about it are they even owned by the museums or do they just maintain them? I know the Intrepid has its own foundation that runs the museum but I’m not sure if the DoD maintains any kind of hold on it. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/10 "2019-03-15T20:13:42Z")
Also note that all but 2 of the US battleships that are currently museums are located in the state they were named after. So there’s got to be a bit of state pride involved there as well. The 2 exceptions are the Missouri & the Wisconsin, landlocked states. And they’re located in/near 2 of the most well known naval bases in the world as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/11 "2019-03-15T20:58:43Z")
Managing ships of this kind and staying solvent has proved difficult, and too many trusts or charities have tried it and gone broke, leaving a rusting hulk which is clocking up moorage fees weekly (think of the USS _Cabot_) . Even the HMS _Belfast_ Trust couldn’t do it and remain solvent, which was why the IWM ended up taking it on. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/12 "2019-03-15T21:09:16Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > According to [this website.](https://www.hazegray.org/navhist/gun_ship.htm) in the entire world there’s only 14 museum ships in the entire world outside of the United States of ships produced past 1900. The United Kingdom only has 3, Greece has 2, France has 1 (formerly 2, they scrapped a cruiser in 2007), Canada and Australia have 1 each, and the rest of the countries only seem to have 1 each. I can already tell you they’re not counting ships which are part of places such as the Dunkirk Naval Museum, which includes several post-1900 ships. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/13 "2019-03-16T03:26:00Z")
Why does the OP assume that it’s a good thing to have old warships as museums? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/14 "2019-03-16T03:44:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Even the IJN Mikasa would have been sunk or something during WW2, except it was encased in concrete and useless. I believe it was Nimitz, a big history buff, who was instrumental in saving _Mikasa_ during the occupation or just after. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/15 "2019-03-16T03:47:07Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > In the US are any of those museums maintained by the government or are the all owned by private entities? > > Now that I think about it are they even owned by the museums or do they just maintain them? I know the Intrepid has its own foundation that runs the museum but I’m not sure if the DoD maintains any kind of hold on it. _Intrepid_ is also located in the city which is the center of world finance and gets a lot of foreign visitors, for whom it’s part of the must see (myself on multiple occasions for instance), when visiting NYC. So a bit of a unique situation. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/16 "2019-03-16T07:20:40Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Why does the OP assume that it’s a good thing to have old warships as museums? Says the Canadian who only has one warship preserved. But as a matter of fact I think its a good thing because it’s a unique piece of history we will probably never see built again due to how fast naval technology changes. We have all sorts of historical sites, why not a warship? Also why scrap them when you can at least use them to attract tourists. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/17 "2019-03-16T07:24:16Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > In the US are any of those museums maintained by the government or are the all owned by private entities? > > Now that I think about it are they even owned by the museums or do they just maintain them? I know the Intrepid has its own foundation that runs the museum but I’m not sure if the DoD maintains any kind of hold on it. I believe most are operated by private entities. During government shutdowns while Pearl Harbor Memorial Park is closed the USS Missouri stays open due to it being privately funded. I’ve also seen the same said for the USS Iowa and USS Midway. I think the only ones funded by the government are the ones still under active commission such as the USS Constitution and USS Little Rock. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/18 "2019-03-16T08:17:34Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I believe it was Nimitz, a big history buff, who was instrumental in saving _Mikasa_ during the occupation or just after. See [Park City Daily News - Google News Archive Search](https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YzoqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lUcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4000,36941) After WWII, the people in power in Japan needed to know that waging war for imperialist purposes was absolutely wrong. They needed to know that they had to completely abandon the militaristic society which lead to the war. The US had absolutely no desire to allow Japan to glorify the war. > [@](#): > > Nagato was far too old to serve usefully in the United States Navy, which had a surplus of aging battleships. The United States wanted to ensure, however, that the ship would not become a focus for revanchist Japanese nationalism in the future. Like many ships seized from Germany and Japan, along with a fair portion of the older cohort of USN ships, Nagato would meet her end at the Bikini atom bomb tests. The USN used the Bikini tests to understand the impact of atomic weapon strikes on fleet concentrations. The Navy used a variety of older capital ships and support vessels, including battleships, carriers, cruisers, and smaller ships. Many of the ships allocated to the tests survived, often for later use as targets for more conventional explosives. Nagato did not. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/19 "2019-03-16T18:08:59Z")
I think the OP may have it wrong, since there are definitely more than 3 former warships preserved from the Royal Navy. HMS Victory HMS Caroline HMS Holland 1 HMS Warrior HMS M.3 (monitor) HMS Gannet HMS Cavalier HMS Alliance HMS Belfast HMS Ocelot HMS X24 HMS Courageous HMS Wellington HMS Unicorn HMS Trincomalee HMS President HM Coastal motor boat No4 Added to this are the Mary Rose which is possibly one of the most noteworthy archeological maritime preservation in the world along with many bits and pieces of other vessels such as HMS Namur There are others whose future has yet to be decided, and all this along with the UKs National Historic Fleet with around 1000 vessels, and a number of tall ships that take on various well publicised events. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189/20 "2019-03-16T18:47:14Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Why does the OP assume that it’s a good thing to have old warships as museums? Why do we save old tombs, battlegrounds and monuments? Why not turn Montecito into condos? You need to see how the sailors lived and fought. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-a-lack-of-modern-military-museum-ships-in-other-countries/831189.md?page=2)