# Why abortions would/wouldn't be legal all the way up to childbirth **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974 "2016-07-26T20:23:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/21 "2016-07-27T11:56:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes and no. > > While in the US are you not obligated to act to help or prevent harm to another (an example for our scenario would be if a miscarriage starts a woman is under no obligation to stop it) in general acting in manner that you have reason to believe could cause harm to another is illegal. It’s a punishable act to punch someone in the face. Wouldn’t it also be a crime to act in a manner that could cause a permanent disability such as blindness? > > If a woman aborts prior to viability then this doesn’t come up because there won’t be a living person to suffer disability. If she aborts shortly after the beginning of viability, though, the odds of a disability go up significantly. Bleeding in the brain occurs in up to 25% of babies born before 32 weeks of gestation. Only about 1/5 of babies born prior to 25 weeks are NOT disabled in some manner. > > If you, as an adult, deliberately performed an action that you knew had a 80% chance of leaving another adult permanently disabled do you think that is ethical or legal? Thanks for the thoughtful response. In the real world I’m not sure how my ‘philosophical answer’, which supposes some option (future tech or something) in which ending a pregnancy after viability is no more likely to cause problems for mother or child then waiting until full term, would apply. In the real world this isn’t so, so my philosophical response isn’t quite valid. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/22 "2016-07-27T12:36:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thanks for the thoughtful response. In the real world I’m not sure how my ‘philosophical answer’, which supposes some option (future tech or something) in which ending a pregnancy after viability is no more likely to cause problems for mother or child then waiting until full term, would apply. In the real world this isn’t so, so my philosophical response isn’t quite valid. Assuming a situation where the mother decides she doesn’t want to be pregnant any more, and the fetus can be delivered in such a manner that it is no more risky than a normal delivery, who supports the baby? I assume we are not going to let the mother opt out of child support, just like we don’t allow fathers to opt out of child support now. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/23 "2016-07-27T13:14:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Assuming a situation where the mother decides she doesn’t want to be pregnant any more, and the fetus can be delivered in such a manner that it is no more risky than a normal delivery, who supports the baby? I assume we are not going to let the mother opt out of child support, just like we don’t allow fathers to opt out of child support now. > > Regards, > Shodan The mother, if she so chooses, or she gives it up for adoption, I would think. Isn’t that how it’s already done with mothers who bear children that they do not want to care for? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/24 "2016-07-27T14:37:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I bring that up here because it’s exactly the same sort of compromise. You can be pro-choice but think abortion is wrong. Hmmm…pretty sure that’s implied in the term “pro-choice”. You can choose to not be for abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/25 "2016-07-27T20:35:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > . . . If a woman aborts prior to viability then this doesn’t come up because there won’t be a living person to suffer disability. If she aborts shortly after the beginning of viability, though, the odds of a disability go up significantly. Bleeding in the brain occurs in up to 25% of babies born before 32 weeks of gestation. Only about 1/5 of babies born prior to 25 weeks are NOT disabled in some manner. . . . One might ask why the abortion (or extraction to an incubator) took place so late. Not all women even know they’re pregnant right away, and there are cases of women who give birth, without ever knowing they were pregnant at all. We might be less sympathetic to a woman who couldn’t make up her mind until later, or a woman who, having lost her job, decided to abort for financial reasons. Yet even then, many of us hold that the principle of bodily sovereignty must prevail. We do not want the state to have the power to compel a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy. People do lots of completely legal things that are horribly unethical. Look at the crap parents teach their children. (Racism, creationism, etc.) They’re doing real and serious harm to their children, but there is no valid legal way to prohibit it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/26 "2016-07-27T20:49:55Z")
[This](http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml) article, written by Carl Sagan years ago, addresses this issue and largely shaped (and changed) my opinion on abortion. For the record, I voted that I’m pro-choice, but in that scenario, abortion should be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/27 "2016-07-27T21:30:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The mother, if she so chooses, or she gives it up for adoption, I would think. Isn’t that how it’s already done with mothers who bear children that they do not want to care for? Yes. The responsibility for supporting a child financially belongs to both parents, no matter which of them wants or doesn’t want the child, unless both parents agree to give the child up for adoption. At present, a pregnant woman who decides she no longer wants to be pregnant, if she makes that decision after the legal time limit for elective abortion, is stuck with carrying the pregnancy to term. And then she’s stuck with the financial responsibilities of parenthood, just as the father is. Having some kind of advanced incubator system that would allow safe delivery of a viable fetus much earlier than the expected delivery date wouldn’t do anything to change those parental responsibilities once the fetus is living outside the womb. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/28 "2016-07-28T03:56:55Z")
> [@](#): > > You are referring to the limit of outpatient abortions. Any past the first trimester have to be surgically aborted instead, and require a hospital stay. After 20 weeks, a live fetus must be taken care of by a physician. Said baby receives personhood status becomes a ward of the state as long as both parents claim they would not want to keep a baby. This is complete anti-choice bullshit. Women can simply take a pill up to 10 to 16 weeks into pregnancy, and after that a so-called “surgical abortion” takes about 5 minutes and does not require a hospital stay-it’s basically a vacuum out the uterus sort of non-event. A 20 week old fetus is not viable; there have only been two recorded instances of a fetus delivered prior to 24 weeks (both at 23.5 weeks) that lived despite intensive life saving efforts, and many doctors think the gestational age of these two cases was incorrectly recorded. Most fetuses delivered at 24 weeks die despite intensive efforts, and those that do live usually have permanent severe mental and physical problems. Science tells us that prior to 28 weeks gestation the brain of a fetus is so incomplete it does not even respond to painful stimuli; it’s a mindless lump of tissue. The vast majority of late-term abortions are performed for medical reasons, and laws restricting late-term abortion simply result in poor medical care. Women are not walking incubators and if they don’t want something growing inside their body, they can have it removed. At any time for any reason. If you believe otherwise you are advocating for a serious violation of women’s rights. No one likes abortion or wants to have one, but the fact remains that women have rights. Forcing a woman to incubate something is a horrific unethical and immoral act. If men could get pregnant, they’d suddenly realize this. The WHO has recently been making statements about the fact that any laws against abortion are a serious human rights violation. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/29 "2016-07-28T04:11:52Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I used to think that abortion on demand right up until birth was a neat and easy answer until I was pregnant. I hate to admit that it can even happen, but I went off my rocker when I was pregnant. From a physical standpoint, I had a normal and uneventful pregnancy, but I also went crazy. If I had been very young, instead of 38 and pregnant for the first time, there was a good chance I might have been diagnosed as bipolar. As it was, I had enough stability behind me to make it pretty clear that my craziness was pregnancy related. > > Now, I didn’t walk into the doctor’s and demand an abortion, but I did think about it a couple of times, and this was a planned and wanted pregnancy-- and I cooled off after I calmed down. These incidents happened late in pregnancy, and I didn’t really want an abortion, I just wanted the psychic trauma to be over-- which it would have, I suppose, but having toughed it out for say, eight months and a week, my doctor would have been better off talking me into a psych consult than prepping me for an abortion. Or even agreeing to an induction and delivering the baby (who when he was born at 41 weeks weighed well over 8 lbs, and probably would have been perfectly healthy three weeks early), on the basis that it was appropriate for my health. > > Now, I was an unusual case. I do not represent women who have been seeking abortions for months, and frustrated at all turns, who would not be candidates for late-term abortions, if early term ones had been easy to get, or women who just found out their fetuses do not have brains, or who just got a cancer diagnosis, and want to start chemo immediately in order to try to live for the two children they already have. > > It did make me think that a woman who has waited six months can probably wait another day (unless she’s having a heart attack, or kidney failure, or something, and then, get the damn fetus out). Of course, any woman can wait a day unless the law says she can’t or the abortion clinic is 50 miles away. > > I wish any woman could make a measured decision about what to do, but a lot of times she can’t because of restrictive laws. If she has days before she goes from 14 to 15 weeks, and abortion is suddenly illegal, then she makes a quick decision, which she is more likely to regret, no matter which one it is. Same for if she makes a quick one because of the distance of the clinic. > > So this brings me back to me, my craziness, and the confidentiality of doctor and patient. If my doctor could talk to me about my personal situation, knowing me like she did, a woman who had made a decision to become pregnant, and carefully carried a pregnancy for many months, telling me to wait, to think some more, that’s great. Being able to have a completely different conversation with a 14-year-old who was accidentally pregnant, and has concealed her condition for five months, because she was afraid of her parents’ reaction is just as good. Being able to have yet another conversation with someone whose planned pregnancy has gone terribly wrong is sad, but also good. > > Restrictions and rules about what doctors can (or cannot, or even must) say are bad. Rules that make decisions rash are bad. > > TL;DR: Rules that restrict abortions are bad and hurt women, and may in fact lead to decisions women regret, both to have abortions, and not to have them. > > More to the point of the OP: every fetus is different. Not all of them develop exactly the same, and so even if we invested a lot of money trying to determine a point in time for “personhood,” at best we’d come up with an average, or maybe a mode. This is an excellently written post. Thanks…super informative. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/30 "2016-07-28T04:14:35Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > The WHO has recently been making statements about the fact that any laws against abortion are a serious human rights violation. Do you have a cite for this? I couldn’t find it on their website. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/31 "2016-07-28T05:57:38Z")
Were you looking on the right [site](http://www.thewho.com/)? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/32 "2016-07-28T06:17:15Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? I couldn’t find it on their website. Maybe what **spamforbrains** is talking about is [WHO policy guidance](http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/70914/1/9789241548434_eng.pdf?ua=1) stating the necessity of abortion rights as part of ensuring women’s health and bodily autonomy, as well as public health in general. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/33 "2016-07-28T08:54:59Z")
BigT: > [@](#): > > You can be pro-choice but think abortion is wrong. True, but you can’t be pro-choice and think that abortion is murder. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/34 "2016-07-28T16:12:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Maybe what **spamforbrains** is talking about is [WHO policy guidance](http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/70914/1/9789241548434_eng.pdf?ua=1) stating the necessity of abortion rights as part of ensuring women’s health and bodily autonomy, as well as public health in general. That’s a very informative link, but it doesn’t address her claim that “any laws against abortion are a serious human rights violation”. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/35 "2016-07-29T04:07:51Z")
> [@](#): > > but it doesn’t address her claim that “any laws against abortion are a serious human rights violation”. That’s my claim. How anyone can think forcing a woman to be walking incubator isn’t a human rights violation is beyond my comprehension. WHO has made a number of statements indicating they think laws against abortion are a human rights violation. Most recently, they criticized Northern Ireland for their treatment of one woman forced to carry a deformed fetus to birth as a human rights violation and they have also stated the antiabortion/anticontraception laws in countries hit by Ziki virus are human rights violations. > **[New call for Northern Ireland abortion reform, as U.N. rules Ireland violates...](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/new-call-northern-ireland-abortion-reform-un-rules-ireland-violates-human-rights)** > > We are Amnesty International UK. We are ordinary people from across the world standing up for humanity and human rights. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/36 "2016-07-29T04:46:31Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > This is complete anti-choice bullshit. Women can simply take a pill up to 10 to 16 weeks into pregnancy, and after that a so-called “surgical abortion” takes about 5 minutes and does not require a hospital stay-it’s basically a vacuum out the uterus sort of non-event. A 20 week old fetus is not viable; there have only been two recorded instances of a fetus delivered prior to 24 weeks (both at 23.5 weeks) that lived despite intensive life saving efforts, and many doctors think the gestational age of these two cases was incorrectly recorded. Most fetuses delivered at 24 weeks die despite intensive efforts, and those that do live usually have permanent severe mental and physical problems. Science tells us that prior to 28 weeks gestation the brain of a fetus is so incomplete it does not even respond to painful stimuli; it’s a mindless lump of tissue. There is a lot that’s factually wrong here. [My daughter was born at 21 weeks 6 days fetal age (23 weeks, 6 days gestational age) more than 11 years ago, and was given “about 50/50” odds of survival.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=302685) She’s perfectly fine, and didn’t even make the news. Little Amillia Taylor, born a year and a half after my daughter, made the news because her mother told a lie to force doctors to save her. And while it’s true that the news reported her as “the youngest preemie ever to survive,” that’s bullocks. James Elgin Gill was born at 21 weeks 5 days fetal age, in 1987, and survived, healthy. Trevor Frolek was born at 23 weeks in 2014, as was Megan Ayles. So…there’s five at least, and I’m sure my daughter isn’t the only one who doesn’t make the lists because she didn’t make the news. At 24 weeks, more than half (55%) of micropreemies survive, and fewer than half (45%) have moderate to severe disabilities. No one has any clear idea when a fetus begins to feel pain. The neocortex is developed at 24 weeks, and is widely considered the precursor for the ability to feel pain. But there’s much argument as to whether they feel pain at 24 weeks or later. I can tell you that if my daughter displayed all the same behaviors that a child, adult or animal would to indicate pain at the equivalent of 25 fetal age weeks - 27 weeks after my last period. I’m as pro-choice as they come, and that was only strengthened by my experiences with my micropreemie daughter, born before the cutoff for abortion in my state. But we shouldn’t be misrepresenting facts to win our arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/37 "2016-07-29T05:50:58Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > . . . No one has any clear idea when a fetus begins to feel pain. . . . It’s not absolutely certain that even newborns “feel pain” in an organized sense. They aren’t aware of the experience of pain in the way adults are. Some very, very young babies tear their own hair out, not able to comprehend that it is they, themselves, who are performing the action that hurts them. A newborn baby is, in a sense, still “fetal,” still un-developed. This has led some to argue that infanticide is not immoral. However, infanticide doesn’t have any virtue of necessity. Even the most horribly deformed and defective babies, once born, can be given some basic level of care. There might be some argument that infanticide would spare such babies from lives than can never be anywhere close to “normal.” But this is still very, very much a minority viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/38 "2016-07-29T06:25:09Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > That’s my claim. How anyone can think forcing a woman to be walking incubator isn’t a human rights violation is beyond my comprehension. Your claim is without basis. The WHO has not said that _any_ laws regulating abortion are serious human rights violations. They simply haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/39 "2016-07-29T07:13:50Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Hmmm…pretty sure that’s implied in the term “pro-choice”. You can choose to not be for abortion. Well, yes. That’s the point of that statement. **Velocity** seems to think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974/40 "2016-07-29T18:01:54Z")
I’m fine with late-term abortions being legal. I’m fine with abortion up until the moment of birth. I’m also an outlier [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-abortions-would-wouldnt-be-legal-all-the-way-up-to-childbirth/760974.md?page=3)