# Why all the focus on Kagan's looks? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913 "2010-05-10T14:33:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/81 "2010-05-11T16:41:33Z")
Newt Gingrich is a ten car pile-up, but hardly anyone ever comments on it. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/82 "2010-05-11T16:45:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Would it? It was something everybody knew about Condi Rice, but it was almost never mentioned (except on messageboards). Huh? I didn’t know that. I thought the word on the street was that she had a big fat crush on W. > [@Lantern](#): > > If you look at US Presidents in the last 50 years, i.e. the TV age, I think it’s pretty clear that looks have played a role. Presidents tend to be taller than average. Not one of the Presidents has been fat or bald either. What about Gerald Ford? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/83 "2010-05-11T16:50:42Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Huh? I didn’t know that. I thought the word on the street was that she had a big fat crush on W. No, those were administration jokes designed to brush off questions about the other rumors. In reality, Condi Rice has a longtime female partner (named Randy or Tony or something like that…a “guy” name) who she lives and travels with, and who is treated like her spouse. My dad was career State Department and has verified for me that this was the case. It was an open secret in State. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/84 "2010-05-11T16:55:42Z")
The lookism comments are definitely made out of sexism, and there’s some homophobia thrown in for good measure. As for her being unmarried, that’s no indication of sexual orientation. For a woman to make the kind of career progress she has, she’s better off without a husband and children. They would only be a distraction, especially since women are still expected to be the main caregivers in a marriage. I know this is not true in every case, but still, a woman can get much further in her job without marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/85 "2010-05-11T17:57:35Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > In any case men in public life are also judged by their looks. I never said they weren’t. My point is just that negative judgements of women’s looks tend to be much more obtrusive and vicious in tone than negative judgements of men’s looks. When a middle-aged man gets in the media spotlight because he’s being considered for a high-level political appointment like the Cabinet or the Supreme Court, his level of personal attractiveness is generally ignored as irrelevant. However, many people seem to have a deep-seated feeling that there is **never** **any** circumstance in which a woman’s level of personal attractiveness is irrelevant. So if they see a woman in the media spotlight whom they consider ugly (or pretty, for that matter), they feel impelled to contribute that opinion to the public discussion of her qualifications. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/86 "2010-05-11T18:04:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In reality, Condi Rice has a longtime female partner (named Randy or Tony or something like that…a “guy” name) who she lives and travels with, and who is treated like her spouse. Fuck me, I never even **heard** of this, but you are quite right that [there is at least a lesbian-partners rumor](http://www.queerty.com/condi-and-best-girl-friend-have-home-20070914/) about Rice and a woman with whom she owns a house, named Randy Bean. (Yes, the article did not fail to point out the “Rice and Bean” nomenclature serendipity.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/87 "2010-05-11T18:18:53Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > As for her being unmarried, that’s no indication of sexual orientation. But that combined with never being seen in public, or rumored to be spending private time with, someone of the opposite sex, or ever having done so, leads to inferences. ---
**Author:** ![abderian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@abderian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abderian)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/88 "2010-05-11T21:22:03Z")
I tried to search, but there are too many variables for search terms. Still, I wonder how many Straight Dope threads have been started about the unattractiveness of any particular American male political celebrity? This discussion itself speaks volumes. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/89 "2010-05-11T21:53:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I never said they weren’t. My point is just that negative judgements of women’s looks tend to be much more obtrusive and vicious in tone than negative judgements of men’s looks. > > When a middle-aged man gets in the media spotlight because he’s being considered for a high-level political appointment like the Cabinet or the Supreme Court, his level of personal attractiveness is generally ignored as irrelevant. However, many people seem to have a deep-seated feeling that there is **never** **any** circumstance in which a woman’s level of personal attractiveness is irrelevant. > > So if they see a woman in the media spotlight whom they consider ugly (or pretty, for that matter), they feel impelled to contribute that opinion to the public discussion of her qualifications. Who exactly are these people? Beyond some annonymous posters on message boards I just don’t think there are that many people attacking the looks of women in public life. Can you point to examples even on cable TV or among well-known blogs? In fact the clearest example I can think of a politician being ridiculed for his looks is male and British: the late Robin Cook who was widely ridiculed for looking like a “garden gnome”. Even his NYTimes [obituary](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/obituaries/07cook.html)mentioned it: > [@](#): > > But in 1994, after the death of the party’s leader John Smith prompted a struggle for succession, Mr. Cook failed to mount a serious challenge to the telegenic and media-savvy Mr. Blair. Mr. Cook’s bearded appearance contrasted awkwardly. Even after his death on Saturday, the Press Association, a normally sober domestic news agency, noted that cartoonists had depicted him to a garden gnome. As the last bit reminds us, politically cartoonists have caricatured the physical defects of male politicians ,often brutally ,for centuries. If anything female politicians may get off more easily precisely because women are perceived as being more sensitive about their looks. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/90 "2010-05-11T21:57:46Z")
She looks like Rush Limbaugh with a pointier nose. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/91 "2010-05-11T22:50:35Z")
She’s a perfectly respectable-looking middle-aged woman. She reminds me of Jillian Armenante. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/92 "2010-05-11T23:20:45Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Beyond some annonymous posters on message boards I just don’t think there are that many people attacking the looks of women in public life. Can you point to examples even on cable TV or among well-known blogs? Well, there was [a guy named John McCain](http://www.mnblue.com/node/2128) that you may have heard of: > [@](#): > > Here’s what he said, at a 1998 Republican Senate fund-raiser. > > “Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? > Because her father is Janet Reno.” There are also well-documented public attacks by well-known people on [Nancy Pelosi’s looks](http://mediamatters.org/research/200905180006). [Mark Levin: Sotomayor is “Ruth Bader Ginsburg plus about 50 pounds”](http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200907150018) [Don Imus on “buck-toothed witch” and “fat, ugly” Hillary Clinton](http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200605250001) And if you’re accepting non-famous but non-anonymous sources like blog authors, there’s even more material to choose from, like the following: [Anal-hemorrhoid-ass ugly this Sonia Sotomayor is!](http://mrssatan.blogspot.com/2009/05/sonia-sotomayor-affirmative-action.html) Elena Kagan hasn’t been in the media spotlight for very long, but I’m sure various non-anonymous sources will be chiming in with their critiques of her looks soon. No, AFAICT we simply don’t see this kind of combination of frequency and viciousness when it comes to comments on the physical attractiveness of middle-aged men in politics. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/93 "2010-05-12T05:13:46Z")
IIRC John McCain apologized immediately for his “joke” about Chelsea. It was a shocker but absolutely not the kind of attack which is considered acceptable in US politics. The other statements are more along the lines of what you are talking about but I would not characterize them as frequent. There were probably thousands of statements from conservatives attacking Sottomayor but I doubt more than a handful focused on her looks. I guess the upcoming Kagan nomination battle will be a good test case. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/94 "2010-05-12T05:25:23Z")
BTW to find two examples of prominent male politicians being ridiculed for their looks on the Internet just google for Bush and chimp and Ted Kennedy and fat. Quite comparable in terms of frequency and viciousness to the examples mentioned in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/95 "2010-05-12T14:55:45Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > IIRC John McCain apologized immediately for his “joke” about Chelsea. And he sounded like Larry the Cable Guy saying “Lord, I 'pologize for that, and be with the starving pygmies in New Guinea”, right? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/96 "2010-05-12T19:14:36Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > BTW to find two examples of prominent male politicians being ridiculed for their looks on the Internet just google for Bush and chimp and Ted Kennedy and fat. The former is primarily a “stupid” gibe rather than an “ugly” one. I’ll give you the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/97 "2010-05-12T19:29:36Z")
The Bush as chimp meme has a lot to do with his facial expressions. Just do an image search and you will see plenty of examples. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/98 "2010-05-12T20:48:02Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > I remember a story on the radio about Hillary Clinton during the 2008 campaign, and one of the things that stuck in my head was the comment about her “looking resplendent in her powder-blue pantsuit.” I don’t believe I ever heard anyone mention how great the suit was that Obama or Edwards was wearing at any time during the campaign. Obama and Edwards were wearing unexceptional dark suits. The only points of distinction in male political dress are ties and lapel pins; if these are either absent or particularly flashy, that will probably be noted. Whereas women _do_ wear outfits that are powder blue, or bright red, or ostentatiously accessorized. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/99 "2010-05-12T20:51:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Anybody who thinks that their opinion about Elena Kagan’s looks belongs in a serious discussion of Kagan’s qualifications to serve on the US Supreme Court is a pig, and a clueless pig at that. You have to be careful, though, to sort out the people who are judging her qualifications by her looks and those that are merely judging her looks. I saw a few pictures of her. In some, she looks pretty normal, but in about 70% of them, she looks hideously ugly. Ugly enough to be comment-worthy. When Sotomayor came around, I don’t remember anyone saying anything about her looks. Maybe there were a few comment here and there, but no more than any other overweight or aged politician. Kagan, on the other hand, is definitely on the low end of the bell curve. That doesn’t mean I think it reflects upon to SCOTUS suitability, so be sure not to lump me (and others like me) in with the crowd that does. > [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Sorry about that. Don’t do that. Don’t apologize to the offenderati. You said nothing wrong. > [@Lantern](#): > > The Bush as chimp meme has a lot to do with his facial expressions. And that’s an important distinction? How? ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913/100 "2010-05-12T20:57:12Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > And that’s an important distinction? How? Not sure what you are asking. My point is that the chimp attacks are about Bush’s looks not just his intelligence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-focus-on-kagans-looks/538913.md?page=6)