# Why all the hate for Independence Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 4, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730 "2011-05-04T18:46:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/41 "2011-05-05T00:34:59Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > Some people don’t know the proper way to watch Independence Day Under the influence of illicit drugs and/or alcohol and after beating yourself over the head with a hammer for 30 minutes? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/42 "2011-05-05T01:24:56Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > I love it. It is a very fun movie, and emotional at the right times. Randy Quaid’s death is one of the saddest in action movies, much better than the First Lady’s (did anyone care about her?) her daughter. and possibly her husband? ---
**Author:** ![multimediac17](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/839c29/32.png) [@multimediac17](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/multimediac17)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/43 "2011-05-05T02:55:20Z")
I like _Independence Day_ and own it on DVD but even when I was a little kid that fire in the tunnel scene just seemed like the stupidest thing ever - I don’t think any suspension of disbelief, no matter how huge, could get me through that bit. _Mars Attacks!_ (mentioned upthread), which I always associate with _Independence Day_ in my head, is amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/44 "2011-05-05T06:45:14Z")
As an updated 1950s B Movie, _Independence Day_ is a great popcorn film that takes itself marginally too seriously but otherwise has great effects and generally makes sure you know what you’re getting yourself in for right from the start. The rampant American patriotism really put me off, though, and the fact it’s basically a (then-modern) remake of _The War Of The Worlds_ but never acknowledged that anywhere bothered me a bit too. Otherwise, not a _bad_ movie and certainly not one I could bring myself to actually hate, but it’s not Great Art, either. Having said that, I fully expect the film to be the subject of “Introduction to Classical Cinema” classes at university in 2500 AD, so even then, history is probably going to prove me wrong on that one too. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/45 "2011-05-05T06:45:49Z")
I actually liked the Boomer thing. Of course it’s unrealistic. The film wasn’t going for realism. ---
**Author:** ![expectopatronum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/expectopatronum/32/173_2.png) [@expectopatronum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/expectopatronum)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/46 "2011-05-05T07:23:40Z")
i love love love independence day. i remember seeing it in the theaters when i was in 5th or 6th grade (somewhere around there) and being blown away by the size of those spaceships. it’s a fun summer popcorn movie type. i always end up watching it if i flick past it on tv. the only other roland emmerich film i’ve seen is 2012, and i thought that one sucked. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/47 "2011-05-05T07:25:33Z")
Ya know, I really hate this movie. It has one of the most hackneyed scripts I’ve ever seen. It has some of the worst character caricatures I’ve ever seen. Yet I watch it almost any time I’m able. I think it makes me feel superior. For each and every scene, almost for each and every second, I can think to myself, “I could have done it better”. And I mean just about EVERYTHING – writing acting and directing. So perhaps watching it is masturbation by other means. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/48 "2011-05-05T11:14:15Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Roland Emerich’s only decent movie(that I’ve seen). To be fair, he also made _Stargate_. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/49 "2011-05-05T11:41:02Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > You’re not supposed to question the technical things. > > Some people don’t know the proper way to watch Independence Day Stoned and with one eye shut? There are good action movies that have giant plot holes. _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ has plot holes big enough to pilot a German U-boat through. However, it is internally consistent enough and keeps the pace of the movie going such that you don’t question these while watching the film. _Independence Day_, in contrast, has plenty of moments that are immediately and inescapably bogus and implausible. As others have said, it is akin to a 'Fifties B-film with modern SFX and CGI…which takes away much of the pleasure of watching the film. I’d rather watch the original _Earth vs. The Flying Saucers_ with the Harryhousen stop motion animation. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/50 "2011-05-05T11:47:13Z")
I don’t _hate_ **Independence Day** , but it is, as others remark, a big old dumb effects-driven summer blockbuster movie, filled with calculated audience-pleasing cliches and no-brainer pandering. It’s exactly the kind of film I show at my Bad Film Festivals when I want to show a recent Bad Film. Emmerich _excels_ at these. You’ve got – Super-Science Aliens with super-weapons invading the earth –Lone Geniuses and cocky pilots –a tragically-dying female character –a drunken pilot who gets to be redeemed – people (and a dog) outrunning a fireball –we find a Secret Way to overcome all that superior Alien Technology –Area 51 was for Real! – Computer virus! – And Our Heroes _just_ manage to escape the destruction of the Death Star – uhh Mother Ship –The mere fact that there _is_ a Mother Ship. Throwing all of this at a Science Fiction True Fan is like giving a sugary meal to a diabetic. If it doesn’t kill him, it’ll make him extremely sick. It’s also true that you’ll find most, if not all, of this in SF that’s considered “good” – just not all in one place. I find it interesting that the key Achilles Heel of the Alien Invaders – their susceptibility to having their computer systems corrupted by a virus – was also used in Arthur C;. Clarke’s _3001 – The Final Odyssey_, that came out about the same time. (Although Clarke made it a bit more plausible. on the other hand, I think a lot of fans dismissed the series after _2061 – Odyssey III_) The Super-Science Aliens Who Can’t Be Beaten – but are is an old trope in science fiction, and one that I’ve never cared for, but the alternative – Aliens Who Beat Us and we Stay Beat (as in wells’ ground-breaking _the War of the Worlds_ and washington Irving’s much earlier(1809!) and unjustly neglected _The Conquest of the Moon_ [http://www.mythaxis.co.uk/5issue3.htm](http://www.mythaxis.co.uk/5issue3.htm) ) – is too depressing for most folks. So War of the Worlds begot _Edison’s Conquest of Mars_ almost immediately after ( [Edison's Conquest of Mars - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison%27s_Conquest_of_Mars) ) , and there have been plenty of similar stories throughout SF (including F.M. Busby’s Demu trilogy). But there’s a reason wells’ book is taken seriously, while the others aren’t – the defeat tells us something about Western Civilization and history, while the other is mere wish-fulfillment. I could go on, but the point is that Independence Day is cotton candy for the mind, and it’s more chock-full of the sort of thing that make SF seem juvenile than it really has to be. If it was deliberately being satire, that’d be one thing, but it seems to be intended to be taken “straight”. I suspect a lot of the grief it gets is from True Believers getting tired of explaining why this isn’t “real” science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Chelonaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chelonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chelonaut)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/51 "2011-05-05T11:57:11Z")
I know it’s supposed to be the other way around, but I think it helps to enjoy Independence Day by watching it as a spoof of Mars Attack. ID is funnier, has loads more energy and is just a plain better movie. Being unintentionally funny beats being intentionally unfunny (or whatever it was Burton was reaching for). ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/52 "2011-05-05T12:21:32Z")
I managed to enjoy it. You have to take it for what it is. I’m in IT, and the computer stuff did grate on me, but that’s true of nearly any SciFi I watch. I’m a big Stargate fan and they were constantly interfacing with alien operating systems and throwing around terms like “subroutine” in ways that made no sense. I’ve learned to just not think about it. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/53 "2011-05-05T13:08:54Z")
Of all the plot-holes and bad science in the movie, I will say the only one that took me out of the picture when I first saw the movie in the theaters was that Goldblum and his dad were able to drive from NYC to DC in a couple of hours… even though people were fleeing cities by the millions. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/54 "2011-05-05T13:14:41Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Of all the plot-holes and bad science in the movie, I will say the only one that took me out of the picture when I first saw the movie in the theaters was that Goldblum and his dad were able to drive from NYC to DC in a couple of hours… even though people were fleeing cities by the millions. They showed that on-screen too. Goldblum and his dad were using the southbound lanes while all the people fleeing the city were doing so in the northbound lanes. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/55 "2011-05-05T13:16:14Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > They showed that on-screen too. Goldblum and his dad were using the southbound lanes while all the people fleeing the city were doing so in the northbound lanes. Well, yes, but if they took I-95 how’d they get _out_ of NYC? Or Philly? Or Wilmington? Or Baltimore? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/56 "2011-05-05T13:17:49Z")
Randy Quaid. Plus, all the jingoistic speeches and soaring music triggered my gag reflex. I could live with the thousand and one plot holes, the completely implausible story and the ham-fisted acting - it’s a summer blockbuster, it had cool explosions. Did they really have to graft on the stupid “Drunken Vietnam vet redeemed by stirring presidential speech” story line? The movie tries to use every weapon in the blockbuster arsenal and fails miserably on the “God bless America” story line. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/57 "2011-05-05T14:28:50Z")
They lost me when they ripped off Shakespeare. The rest of the movie was mindless pap, but the “Independence Day” speech made me want to hurl. I take some small comfort in the fact that none of the characters in the movie likely lived more than a year or so after the fall of the alien ships. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/58 "2011-05-05T15:26:08Z")
I’m firmly in the hater camp, I just found it embarrassing to watch. What exactly was there to like? Cheesey dialogue and melodramatic acting. Plot holes big enough to threaten the fabric of space-time itself. Jingoism. Things got really silly with the countdown, which was a clumsy mechanism to insert the Jeff Goldblum character into the story. Why did the aliens bother hacking into our communications satellites? They could have achieved exactly the same effect using that pinnacle of interstellar technology, **the clock**. When the attack begins, the alien weapons are strangely feeble. According to the blurb on Wikipedia, each of the saucers is 15 miles wide. They could have done vastly more damage simply flying around the globe at a few hundred miles per hour, and letting the shockwave do the damage. Why do the aliens bother with ship-to-ship combat? They are sitting behind a shield that can resist nuclear explosions. A quick blast of their energy weapon and any fighters in the vicinity would be taken out by the blast. At every turn you can see screenwriting committee at work. Want a shot of the white house being blasted to pieces? Park a saucer on top of it. A dogfight would be cool, so let’s put the aliens in fighters. The whole film is like this. It’s not a natural story that progresses, it’s a series of scenes stitched together, with the flimsiest of justifications. The storytelling takes a firm backseat to the pursuit of spectacle. It can’t be enjoyed without disengaging the critical faculties. There is a critical line where suspension of disbelief is broken, immersion is lost, and enjoyment ends. For me, Independence Day steps over this line, steps into a rocket powered car, and hurtles off into the distance. Now, if you enjoyed Independence Day, that’s fine. Some of the films I like are pretty bad. But please, don’t try to tell me it’s a good movie. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/59 "2011-05-05T16:12:55Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Now, if you enjoyed Independence Day, that’s fine. Some of the films I like are pretty bad. But please, don’t try to tell me it’s a good movie. As I’ve mentioned somewhere before (probably in some other movie thread), many years ago I happened upon a reviewer who used a scale for judging movies that I found quite logical: he graded them according to how well they fulfilled their intended purpose, using stars. So, for example, a cheesy popcorn movie that was great fun to watch could be a four-star one-star movie, while a pretentious bore of an Oscar contender could be a one-star four-star movie. _Independence Day_ is a three- or four-star one-star movie in my book. It doesn’t aspire to be great filmmaking, but it’s a fun stupid movie full of aliens, explosions, and dumb jokes. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730/60 "2011-05-05T16:31:39Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I’m firmly in the hater camp, I just found it embarrassing to watch. What exactly was there to like? Cheesey dialogue and melodramatic acting. Plot holes big enough to threaten the fabric of space-time itself. Jingoism. > > Things got really silly with the countdown, which was a clumsy mechanism to insert the Jeff Goldblum character into the story. Why did the aliens bother hacking into our communications satellites? They could have achieved exactly the same effect using that pinnacle of interstellar technology, **the clock**. When the attack begins, the alien weapons are strangely feeble. According to the blurb on Wikipedia, each of the saucers is 15 miles wide. They could have done vastly more damage simply flying around the globe at a few hundred miles per hour, and letting the shockwave do the damage. Why do the aliens bother with ship-to-ship combat? They are sitting behind a shield that can resist nuclear explosions. A quick blast of their energy weapon and any fighters in the vicinity would be taken out by the blast. At every turn you can see screenwriting committee at work. Want a shot of the white house being blasted to pieces? Park a saucer on top of it. A dogfight would be cool, so let’s put the aliens in fighters. The whole film is like this. It’s not a natural story that progresses, it’s a series of scenes stitched together, with the flimsiest of justifications. The storytelling takes a firm backseat to the pursuit of spectacle. It can’t be enjoyed without disengaging the critical faculties. There is a critical line where suspension of disbelief is broken, immersion is lost, and enjoyment ends. For me, Independence Day steps over this line, steps into a rocket powered car, and hurtles off into the distance. > > Now, if you enjoyed Independence Day, that’s fine. Some of the films I like are pretty bad. But please, don’t try to tell me it’s a good movie. At least they didn’t show Randy Quaid taking out the alien ship with a _biplane_, which was originally intended (cite: deleted scenes from the DVD). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hate-for-independence-day/580730.md?page=4)