# Why all the hostility toward looking nice?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [December 19, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367 "2005-12-19T23:31:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/181 "2005-12-22T16:26:06Z")
> [@Stonebow](#):
>
> and, on preview, to address **Justin\_Bailey** : most of society’s rules are unwritten, no matter what society we’re speaking of. But they are easy to read if you keep your eyes open, can see outside yourself, and are willing to make some effort. **No one’s advocating throwing anyone in jail for their choices here, or even denying them entry.** But I will defend the right of people to make judgments based on conscious choices on your part.
Actually, this thread seems to be filled with people who advocate “kicking someone out” who dares go against the unwritten rule.
So again, if a restaurant is, as you say, “turning a blind eye” to someone breaking an unwritten rule, then what’s the harm to you, another patron of said restaurant? I have never gone to a restaurant to look at the other people. I go there to have good food prepared and served by someone else. If they don’t have a problem with my tshirt and jeans (or in this weather, sweater and jeans) why should anyone else?
And I also have yet to hear a single argument about why society demands these things. As many of you in this thread are saying, Shakespeare did not start as “high art” but has grown into that definition over time.
Maybe, horror of horrors, your opinion of clothes are becoming outdated as well?
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/182 "2005-12-22T16:26:33Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> I have learned what the rules are. I have also decided that some are pointless or should not be followed.
This argument can be (and has been) used to explain away anything one wishes. Anything at all.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/183 "2005-12-22T16:27:37Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> They can judge me all they want. [Kevin Meaney] I don’t care. I don’t care. Zoom zooom zoooom[/Kevin Meaney]
What do you do when you’re in situations where other people’s judgements of you matter a lot?
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/184 "2005-12-22T16:29:17Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> And I also have yet to hear a single argument about why society demands these things.
It bemuses me that there are people who actually need to have this “proven” to them.
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### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/185 "2005-12-22T16:29:42Z")
Oh, and ancedote time!
I work in a public library as a clerk. All our dress code states is that men should wear long pants (women may wear skirts) and no shirts may have “slogans” on them unless they promote library programming (summer reading club, blood drive, etc).
Which means my tshirt and jeans are not only allowed, but encouraged!
Sticks in your craw doesn’t it?
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### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/186 "2005-12-22T16:31:59Z")
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> It bemuses me that there are people who actually need to have this “proven” to them.
Why?
Why is “What kind of clothes are required of me at your establishment?” a stupid question.
Why is suit and tie the default?
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/187 "2005-12-22T16:37:49Z")
> [@Necros](#):
>
> So, Doc Cathode, it’s like this. Why don’t you wear jeans and a t-shirt to a nice restaurant? Because it is disrespectful to other diners, and creates anj unpleasant atmosphere. Why? Because It Does.
So you admit that you cannot explain or defend your position?
> [@Bordelond](#):
>
> Okay, then … everything you do makes perfect sense? You’ve eliminated arbitrariness from every aspect of your life?
I dealt with that strawman in post #171
> [@](#):
>
> And how do you reconcile situations where things that make perfect sense to you don’t make perfect sense to other people? Let me guess … “Eff 'em”.
No, I deal with it by not imposing my rules on others. People are not allowed to smoke in my apartment (for the reason that cigarette smoke damages things and I have many antiques I inted to keep for a long time. I do other things to preserve them as well). I ask visitors not to kill spiders and insects. I explain why I feel it is immoral, and nobody has objected so far.
> [@](#):
>
> Are you especially perturbed when an ad hoc authority figure (e.g. DMW clerk) forces you to conform to something you can’t make sense of?
Yes, but over the years I’ve gotten used to the government or other bureaucracies making strange demands. You must fill out form 37-b. Why? Nobody knows.
> [@](#):
>
> Do you have an authority-figure problem to begin with?
Only with those who cannot explain why a rule is necessary. I’ve loved almost every teacher I had in public school.
> [@](#):
>
> I say it’s not \
Why not? Unlike hearing and smell, sight is directional. Focusing on what is close obscures what is far away. Why can’t you ignore a person’s dress?
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/188 "2005-12-22T16:42:20Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> Sticks in your craw doesn’t it?
Not at all. This is a “time and place” issue. Few, if anyone, in this thread are saying – “All ties and suits, all the time”.
Heck, I’m advocating the suit-and-tie look for formal dining, the symphony, etc., when I myself go to such places maybe 2-3 times a year.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/189 "2005-12-22T16:43:06Z")
> [@](#):
>
> No, I deal with it by not imposing my rules on others.
Doc. When you go into a place with a dress code and purposely don’t follow it out of some overblown sense of your individual importance, _you are imposing your rules on others_.
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### Author:  [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/190 "2005-12-22T16:43:59Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> Sticks in your craw doesn’t it?
No. It’s a public library, and the dress code, as stated, provides for jeans and teeshirts. How would wearing jeans and teeshirts to a place that specifically allows them stick in anybodys craw? :rolleyes:
I would be interested to know how our band of merry rebels would deal with a restaurant that has a posted dress code (there are some that do) specifying dinner jacket attire is required? In that case the “unwritten” rule is written.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/191 "2005-12-22T16:44:46Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Why not? Unlike hearing and smell, sight is directional.
But the memory is not. A sight can linger on, even when it’s out of sight.
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### Author:  [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/192 "2005-12-22T16:47:03Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> So you admit that you cannot explain or defend your position?
No, you misunderstand me, I think. I completely agree with you that many of society’s mores are arbitrary, and may seem logically capricious. What I’m pointing out is that certain rules DO exist, not that there tends to be a whole lots of rational basis for this. My position is that society expects certain things, and that one should do one’s best to follow those expectations, because it’s polite in many situations. And for the simple reason that being polite is a Good Thing. You’re asking me to explain the WHY behind these expectations, as if I invented them. I did not.
Your argument seems to be “Society has rules, but I don’t have to follow them, because I’m special! I do what I want! To hell with everyone else!” So, you are very aware of what society’s rules are, and are deliberately flaunting them because it’s convenient for you to do so. Do you see how that rubs people the wrong way?
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/193 "2005-12-22T16:49:56Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> So you admit that you cannot explain or defend your position?
Well, of course not! It’s not a debatable topic (well, you can, but you’re not going to change convention and the minds of those who disagree with you by mere argument).
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally Posted by **Bordelond** _
> Okay, then … everything you do makes perfect sense? You’ve eliminated arbitrariness from every aspect of your life?
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> I dealt with that strawman in post #171
It’s not a strawman. It’s inconsistent to rail against arbitrariness in one thing, while allowing it in another. Your application of logic to your own behavior strikes me as very much arbitrary.
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### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/194 "2005-12-22T16:50:43Z")
> [@FaerieBeth](#):
>
> No. It’s a public library, and the dress code, as stated, provides for jeans and teeshirts. How would wearing jeans and teeshirts to a place that specifically allows them stick in anybodys craw? :rolleyes:
I don’t know, why don’t we ask the folks in this thread who claim jeans and tshirts ruin the decor of a restaurant **even when it’s not against the dress code**.
Frankly, I’m surprised someone fell for the bait so quickly.
> [@](#):
>
> I would be interested to know how our band of merry rebels would deal with a restaurant that has a posted dress code (there are some that do) specifying dinner jacket attire is required? In that case the “unwritten” rule is written.
Then if we wanted to eat at that restaurant we’d wear the jacket and tie. Duh!
The fight is not against formal clothes, it’s against the expectation of formal (and uncomfortable) clothes when we don’t have to wear them. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/195 "2005-12-22T16:53:31Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> So again, if a restaurant is, as you say, “turning a blind eye” to someone breaking an unwritten rule, then what’s the harm to you, another patron of said restaurant? I have never gone to a restaurant to look at the other people. I go there to have good food prepared and served by someone else. If they don’t have a problem with my tshirt and jeans (or in this weather, sweater and jeans) why should anyone else?
Again, the fact that you were accommodated says nothing about the propriety of your actions.
> [@](#):
>
> As many of you in this thread are saying, Shakespeare did not start as “high art” but has grown into that definition over time.
True, but many things are different than they were at the turn of the 17th-century. We have other ways to have a narrative performed for us now. The process of turning theater into a formal event took a century and a half and involved Cromwell, the Restoration, and the rise of the middle class.
In any case, theater survives by being a different sort of experience than a movie or a tv show. It adheres to a tradition of dress and behavior. That is part of the experience. It is a niche market, granted, but it is what keeps drama alive.
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### Author:  [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/196 "2005-12-22T16:54:07Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> I never claimed to live my life in pursuit of Kohl Innar
>
> _snip_
>
> … Your comparison is flawed for that reason.
>
> _snip_
>
> … Your comparison is flawed for this reason as well.
I’d say that you were well on your way Mr. Spock! 😃
I kid, I kid. I love this discussion, I respect you and your posting, however, I am fascinated in how we are diametriclly opposed on this subject.
Which makes me wonder, you seem to be stressing somewhat of an extreme absolute in dress code interpretation and requirements, are you sugesting that these “dress code conventions” **do not** exist, or **should not** exist?
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### Author:  [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/197 "2005-12-22T16:56:30Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Admitting and serving me is ‘bending over backwards’?.
If you’re not dressed appropriately (in the way the establishment determines that) then it is.
> [@](#):
>
> I have learned what the rules are.
I know. That was someone else. You slackers all look the same to me.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/198 "2005-12-22T16:57:21Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> … formal (and uncomfortable) clothes …
This _so_ does not go hand in hand.
I have to admit that **Doc** made do a double-take when he posted that _khakis_, in general, are uncomfortable. My dress pants have a much thinner, “movable” fabric than any pair of jeans I ever owned. To my experience, the only kind of khaki pants that seem stiff and confining (until after a few washings) are Dickies work pants with Scotch Guard.
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### Author:  [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/199 "2005-12-22T16:58:27Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> Frankly, I’m surprised someone fell for the bait so quickly.
>
> The fight is not against formal clothes, it’s against the expectation of formal (and uncomfortable) clothes when we don’t have to wear them.
Then you need to choose a better counter example than a place with a **written** dress code **allowing** jeans and teeshirts if your arguement is against unwritten rules and the expectations of acceptance of a given, yet unstated standard.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/200 "2005-12-22T17:04:59Z")
> [@Necros](#):
>
> No, you misunderstand me, I think. I completely agree with you that many of society’s mores are arbitrary, and may seem logically capricious. What I’m pointing out is that certain rules DO exist, not that there tends to be a whole lots of rational basis for this. My position is that society expects certain things, and that one should do one’s best to follow those expectations, because it’s polite in many situations.
To me, this can genuinely be paraphrased as ‘Because we say so’. I’ve never accepted that as a reason for the rules.
> [@](#):
>
> And for the simple reason that being polite is a Good Thing. You’re asking me to explain the WHY behind these expectations, as if I invented them. I did not.
You didn’t invent the handshake either. But we know how it came about. You didn’t invent the tablecloth. But we know it was originally a communal napkin. We know who invented the tuxedo. We can trace the development of the modern suit back for centuries. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect some Doper to know when, where and why the suit became required for symphonies etc.
> [@](#):
>
> Your argument seems to be "Society has rules, but I don’t have to follow them, because I’m special!
My argument is that no rule should be followed unless it can be properly explained and justified. And everybody is special.
> [@](#):
>
> I do what I want! To hell with everyone else!"
I never said to hell with everyone else. Many of society’s rules exist for good reason and I follow them.
> [@](#):
>
> So, you are very aware of what society’s rules are, and are deliberately flaunting them because it’s convenient for you to do so. Do you see how that rubs people the wrong way?
Yes. But I find their insistence that I follow a rule that they cannot explain or defend utterly baffling.
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