# Why all the hostility toward looking nice?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [December 19, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367 "2005-12-19T23:31:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 12
### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/221 "2005-12-22T18:26:35Z")
> [@saoirse](#):
>
> I don’t think that’s true. When I look around, I see **Doc’s** point of view as the majority. Kind of sad, really.
Depends on where you go. Few, if any, dress like him at the symphony, fine restaurants, etc. around here. Those that do certainly stand out. When they stop standing out is when the rules have truly changed.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/222 "2005-12-22T18:27:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> And the blacks and the women knew their place.
Speaking of strawmen.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/223 "2005-12-22T18:30:12Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> You, as **Saoirse** admits, are the outnumbered ones.
BTW, in case it was unclear – I’m actually cool with wearing casual non-jean pants and a collared, button-down short to a fancy-frou place. It’s your insistance on a t-shirt and jeans that would distract me.
Can’t/Won’t do suit-and-tie? There are many options.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/224 "2005-12-22T18:30:46Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> For me, except for the weddings etc of people I care about, and business situations, .
Why do these two situations get a pass, exactly?
Concerning the first one, should I then undersand that not dressing up is an evidence that you don’t care about people?
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### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/225 "2005-12-22T18:37:08Z")
> [@FaerieBeth](#):
>
> Then you need to choose a better counter example than a place with a **written** dress code **allowing** jeans and teeshirts if your arguement is against unwritten rules and the expectations of acceptance of a given, yet unstated standard.
Except it is the same as the library dress code only says what is not allowed. As The restaurant code says as well because in our hypothetical restauarant, they only follow decency laws as DocCathode continues to be allowed to eat there.
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### Author:  [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/226 "2005-12-22T18:49:30Z")
> [@UrbanChic](#):
>
> I think many things
Wow. This has been an educational thread. I mean that seriously. I’d no idea that people had such a wide variety of opinions - STRONG opinons - about what other people wear. 🙂
I still say that under the most mundane of circumstances, I’m being respectable as long as my person and my clothes are clean and tidy, and I don’t look like 5 pounds of sausage stuffed in a 3 pound sack. YMMV. In conclusion, I believe I’ll take a page out of **UrbanChic** ’s book:
> [@](#):
>
> I’m sure they look down their noses at me while thinking to themselves I probably don’t know any better.
>
> I’m not going to change how I dress because of it, though, and neither should anyone else.
🆒
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/227 "2005-12-22T18:53:22Z")
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> You don’t even dress to these standards – not in a t-shirt and jeans, anyway.
I didn’t say I was against black tie. I didn’t say I was against mandatory jacket and tie. I said any dress code.
Re Strawman
I disagree. **Guinastasia** was longing for a bygone era (as she was with the Titanic dinner) and speaking of hats and gloves of signs of civility. I reminded her what that time was really like. If she had simply said ‘I like snoods. More women should wear snoods.’ or a similar statement devoid of historical context, then my statement would have been out of place.
**Clairobscur** I hate having to wear a suit etc. Those who are close to me know this. So when I wear a suit to their event, it is a clear sign of just how much I care about them. They realize that I am willing to something I dislike intensely in order to make them happy. The list of people I will wear a suit for is small.
Business situations get a pass for a simple reason. You have to do many pointless things to keep your job.
Not wearing a suit is, to an extent, a sign that I don’t care about people. I don’t care about the other diners, however, I will be quite, odorless, and other wise not disturb their meal (I disagree with **saoirse** ’s claim that a single look at jeans and t-shirt ruins the meal for everyone). I do care about the waitstaff, but I feel that the proper way to express this is verbal communication. If nothing else, these people can slow things down or taint my food if angered. I care about the cooks. I don’t feel that my clothing (which they won’t see) is necessary to express politeness to them either.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/228 "2005-12-22T18:59:47Z")
I wasn’t saying that the past was more civil, I’m saying I think it’s a shame we don’t dress as nice as we once did.
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### Author:  [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/229 "2005-12-22T19:02:03Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Not wearing a suit is, to an extent, a sign that I don’t care about people. I don’t care about the other diners, however, I will be quite, odorless, and other wise not disturb their meal (I disagree with saoirse’s claim that a single look at jeans and t-shirt ruins the meal for everyone). I do care about the waitstaff, but I feel that the proper way to express this is verbal communication. If nothing else, these people can slow things down or taint my food if angered. I care about the cooks. I don’t feel that my clothing (which they won’t see) is necessary to express politeness to them either.
Well the people who work there do feel that way. Maybe illogically, but they do.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/230 "2005-12-22T19:02:53Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> Except it is the same as the library dress code only says what is not allowed. As The restaurant code says as well because in our hypothetical restauarant, they only follow decency laws as DocCathode continues to be allowed to eat there.
What are these ‘decency laws’ you speak of? Should I ask **Bricker** about this?
Decency has nothing to do with it. Any restaurant with a posted, or otherwise clearly made known to the public, dress code has the right under US laws, to kick you out for not meeting the dress code. They also have the right to refuse to admit you if you do not meet the dress code. If they feel the need to follow the ‘decency laws’ , why not just say ‘Sir, while you seem like a fine individual, and we should be happy to have your custom, the owners are quite strict about the dress code. I regret then, that I may not admit you. I humbly request that you return in a tuxedo. At that time, it shall be my pleasure to get you a table. Until then, I must bid you good night.’
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/231 "2005-12-22T19:10:39Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> I wasn’t saying that the past was more civil, I’m saying I think it’s a shame we don’t dress as nice as we once did.
I misunderstood you then. Sorry about that.
Personally, I want a return to cloaks and hooded cloaks. They go with anything and look unbearably cool.
The number of senior citizens keeps growing. I fully expect a return to walking sticks and decorative canes.
**Saoirse** First, you’re speaking for a rather large group of people. While some will think my clothing rude, not all of them will. Most will find it out of place and nothing more. After speaking to me, the waiter will find that I am not some stereotypical ignorant bumpkin, but a perfectly nice man who for some inexplicable reason, is wearing jeans and a t-shirt.
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### Author:  [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/232 "2005-12-22T19:13:29Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> Except it is the same as the library dress code **only says what is not allowed**.
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> All our dress code states is that men **should wear long pants (women may wear skirts)** and no shirts may have “slogans” on them unless they promote library programming (summer reading club, blood drive, etc).
If you have accurately represented your dress code, then it does not _only_ say what is not allowed. It also states what _should_ be worn.
Person A: You should wear formal (or at least Sunday-best) attire to a “Fancy Five Star Restaurant” because, although it is unwritten, it is expected.
Person B: Oh yeah? Well, the dress code at the library says I can wear jeans, so I wear jeans to the library. Take that!
This seems to be the statement you were making. There’s a bit of a disconnect, there.
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/233 "2005-12-22T19:15:43Z")
They actually don’t need a written dress code. They can refuse to seat you because they don’t like the look of your face (bouncers at high profile clubs do it all the time - line pick who will be and won’t be admitted based on appearance and dress). No need for anything in writing.
Most places I know will be happy to seat you in the bar if you don’t conform to their dress code.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/234 "2005-12-22T19:15:48Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Personally, I want a return to cloaks and hooded cloaks. They go with anything and look unbearably cool.
Arbitrary, _n’est ce pas_?
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/235 "2005-12-22T19:28:09Z")
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> Arbitrary, _n’est ce pas_?
Now, now. there’s no need for that kind of language.
It’s arbitrary yes. But, I’m enforcing one of my rules on anybody else. I hope that they will come back into fashion. But, I don’t want a situation where anybody is forced to wear a cloak. If some restaurant had a mandatory cloak policy, I’d object to that.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/236 "2005-12-22T19:29:59Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Now, now. there’s no need for that kind of language.
>
> It’s arbitrary yes. But, I’m enforcing one of my rules on anybody else. I hope that they will come back into fashion.
:smack: That should read I’m NOT.
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### Author:  [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/237 "2005-12-22T19:40:21Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> If some restaurant had a mandatory cloak policy, I’d object to that.
I would _so_ go to a restaurant like that! It would fall somewhere along the same scale as **Guin** ’s Titanic Party. Something required, but required for the sheer fun of it!
I even have a cloak! Mine is green wool, lined with burgundy satin. 😉
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### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/238 "2005-12-22T19:47:50Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> What are these ‘decency laws’ you speak of? Should I ask **Bricker** about this?
Relax Doc, I’m on your side.
All I meant by decency laws was that as long as you’re not using your dick as a salad fork you’re covered according to the letter of the law.
Anything after that is a dress code, which our tshirt and jeans is not offending, but yet we’re still wrong.
You know, just because.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/239 "2005-12-22T19:52:30Z")
You know … come to think of it, **Doc** … the nudity taboo (heck, any taboo) is merely learned behavior. And I’ve read here that you hold learned behaviors as illegitimate.
Laws, shmaws … fight the nudity taboo like you would any other learned behavior.
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### Author:  [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/240 "2005-12-22T20:03:43Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Now, now. there’s no need for that kind of language.
>
> It’s arbitrary yes. But, I’m enforcing one of my rules on anybody else. I hope that they will come back into fashion. But, I don’t want a situation where anybody is forced to wear a cloak. If some restaurant had a mandatory cloak policy, I’d object to that.
It is with the same dismay that I find that the local RenFaire has fewer and fewer people in cloaks. They still shouldn’t be denied admission, but can’t anyone make a freaking effort anymore?
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