# Why all the hostility toward looking nice?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [December 19, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367 "2005-12-19T23:31:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 13
### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/241 "2005-12-22T20:12:15Z")
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> You know … come to think of it, **Doc** … the nudity taboo (heck, any taboo) is merely learned behavior. And I’ve read here that you hold learned behaviors as illegitimate.
>
> Laws, shmaws … fight the nudity taboo like you would any other learned behavior.
I’ll get started on it. However, I still think that purely for health reasons, a shirt, and a piece of clothing covering from the pubis to the anus should be required in restaurants. If somebody can prove to me that these areas do not constitute a health hazard, I’ll campaign for every restaurant to be made clothing optional.
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### Author:  [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/242 "2005-12-22T20:19:07Z")
> [@saoirse](#):
>
> It is with the same dismay that I find that the local RenFaire has fewer and fewer people in cloaks. They still shouldn’t be denied admission, but can’t anyone make a freaking effort anymore?
See, no, they obviously can’t. It doesn’t matter WHAT appropriate clothing is, as long as it’s appropriate. The problem is that no, no one is making an effort.
I have another twist on this. I’m a member of the Colorado Gothic Lolita Society, and we have a very particular way of dressing. I definitely feel uncomfortable if I’m going to an event, and I am not dressed appropriately. It doesn’t mater in this case that “appropriate” is Victorian dresses of black lace or waistcoats and cravats. What I don’t understand is why people don’t seem to have that little voice inside that says, “Hey, you should be polite to other people and try to get along.” Too much nonconformity for nonconformity’s sake, methinks…
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### Author:  [@lalaith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalaith)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/243 "2005-12-22T20:24:26Z")
I
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> don’t like dress codes of any kind. To me, they are pointless and arbitrary rules which continue to exist only because they have become tradition.
Then, DocCathode, why aren’t you screaming to high heaven about the library having a dress code?
Could it be you didn’t protest because your jeans and t-shirt are acceptable to them? I didn’t see you post anything about trying to get in the library in clothes you know are outside the dress code or about flouting the spirit of its dress code. You didn’t make the tiniest squeak of a protest about it. And if you start now only after reading this post it’s going to come across as totally faked.
Your lack of complaining about the library dress code indicates to me that you have no problems with a dress code that fits the way you dress, but you are and will raise holy hell over a dress code that would require you to change into clothes you don’t want to wear. 😉
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> Now I’m not one of those people who think women should always wear dresses, and that jeans are NEVER appropriate outside of the fields, but I sometimes lament that our society has stopped dressing up on a regular basis. Women never wear hats and gloves are something for cold weather, or very formal occassions.
You can take heart, there’s at least one hat wearer out here. I have dozens of them from cloches, to knit caps, to broad-brimmed felt hats decorated with feathers. I love wearing hats.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/244 "2005-12-22T20:25:08Z")
> [@Necros](#):
>
> Too much nonconformity for nonconformity’s sake, methinks…
What other kind of nonconfrmity is there? It’s reactionary by nature, after all.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/245 "2005-12-22T20:37:23Z")
> [@lalaith](#):
>
> I
>
> Then, DocCathode, why aren’t you screaming to high heaven about the library having a dress code?
>
> Could it be you didn’t protest because your jeans and t-shirt are acceptable to them? I didn’t see you post anything about trying to get in the library in clothes you know are outside the dress code or about flouting the spirit of its dress code. You didn’t make the tiniest squeak of a protest about it. And if you start now only after reading this post it’s going to come across as totally faked.
I thought the library dress code that was mentioned applied only to employees (no slogans or logos except for those of library programs). This would fall under business situations, as I explained earlier. The patrons can wear whatever the hell they want.
> [@](#):
>
> Your lack of complaining about the library dress code indicates to me that you have no problems with a dress code that fits the way you dress, but you are and will raise holy hell over a dress code that would require you to change into clothes you don’t want to wear. 😉
Or it could be just what I said above. As a library patron, the dress code does not apply to me.
I’m not screaming about the uniform policies of McDonalds, BlockBuster, or any other business.
> [@Necros](#):
>
> See, no, they obviously can’t. It doesn’t matter WHAT appropriate clothing is, as long as it’s appropriate. The problem is that no, no one is making an effort.
I wore my cloak to the Ren Faire because I wanted to. As far as I am concerned, any clothing worn by other fairgoes _was_ appropriate. They _had_ made the effort to dress appropriately.
> [@](#):
>
> I have another twist on this. I’m a member of the Colorado Gothic Lolita Society, and we have a very particular way of dressing. I definitely feel uncomfortable if I’m going to an event, and I am not dressed appropriately. It doesn’t mater in this case that “appropriate” is Victorian dresses of black lace or waistcoats and cravats. What I don’t understand is why people don’t seem to have that little voice inside that says, “Hey, you should be polite to other people and try to get along.” Too much nonconformity for nonconformity’s sake, methinks…
I do have a voice telling me to be polite, and I am. I don’t think clothing enters into it, and my voice agrees. “try to get along” Meaning what exactly? I don’t sit around plotting noncomfority. This is just who I am. Jeans and a t-shirt are just the clothes I like to wear. What strangers think is irrelevant.
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### Author:  [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/246 "2005-12-22T20:39:00Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> I disagree. **Guinastasia** was longing for a bygone era (as she was with the Titanic dinner) and speaking of hats and gloves of signs of civility. I reminded her what that time was really like.
No, you reminded her of what only a small segment of the population was like at that historical period.
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> And the blacks and the women knew their place. Obviously, that bit of the past should stay dead. Why should hats, gloves and tie be revived? I like hats. I hate the idea of being told to wear one.
I would point out that in 1912 not _all_ blacks “knew their place” and that not _all_women “knew their place”.
You are illogical, Norman coordinate.
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### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/247 "2005-12-22T20:59:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> I thought the library dress code that was mentioned applied only to employees (no slogans or logos except for those of library programs). This would fall under business situations, as I explained earlier. The patrons can wear whatever the hell they want.
And do they ever!
My eyes! The goggles do nothing!
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### Author:  [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/248 "2005-12-22T21:05:17Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#):
>
> [hijack]\*\*\*\*\* Gold stars for everyone. Four pages into a thread with a solid theme about discrimination and prejudice and NOBODY has made any patronizing analogies or hypotheticals involving our favorite “example race”. Very good, people.[/hijack]
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> And the blacks and the women knew their place. Obviously, that bit of the past should stay dead.
Yeesh, that’ll teach me to be so quick with the gold stars. Ah, well. Four and a quarter pages isn’t so bad…
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### Author:  [@lalaith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalaith)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/249 "2005-12-22T21:11:46Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> I thought the library dress code that was mentioned applied only to employees (no slogans or logos except for those of library programs). This would fall under business situations, as I explained earlier. The patrons can wear whatever the hell they want.
Fair enough. My bad.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/250 "2005-12-22T21:15:50Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#):
>
> Yeesh, that’ll teach me to be so quick with the gold stars. Ah, well. Four and a quarter pages isn’t so bad…
That wasn’t in response to dress codes. I misunderstood **Guinastasia** and thought that she was waxing nostalgic for the halycon days of yore. It’s happened before.
**BMalion** True, but I was attempting to make an emotional impact rather than a logical point. As my comment was a response to something **Guinastasia** did not actually, it’s all beside the point, which is moot.
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### Author:  [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/251 "2005-12-22T22:39:03Z")
I can really see both sides of the arguments in this thread (even though several are badly flawed). **DocCathode** , why can’t you see the other side? If I send out an invitation to a party and say, “please wear costumes,” or “formal attire, please,” or “please dress like a pirate,” then most people will either think, “sounds like fun” or “yuck.” Many attendees will plan days in advance what they’re going to wear. If you show up in jeans and a t-shirt, you’re being discourteous–if not downright rude. If you don’t think the theme sounds like fun, don’t go!
This extends to life in general. If I just left the ranch and I’m wearing rubber muck boots, torn jeans, and a faded old shirt, I’m going to look for a restaurant where other people are in work clothes. If I went into the finest restaurant in town dressed that way, I’d feel like a party-crasher. It would just be rude.
And, BTW, here’s another voice saying that formal clothing isn’t uncomfortable–although most people in this thread are speaking of semi-formal at best. I dress on a daily basis in jeans and Western-style shirts. My cowboy boots are clean, there are no rips, tears, or stains in the clothes, and I look pretty good.
I also, however, own suits, dress shirts, ties, and all of the other accoutrements. None of those clothes are uncomfortable. A properly-fitted collar with a correctly-tied tie doesn’t bind or choke me. When I go to most of my favorite restaurants, I don’t dress up, but when I go to a fundraiser, private party, upscale restaurant, wedding, funeral, or other special event, I put on the appropriate clothing, and it feels good.
People who think I’m elitist when I wear a tux are every bit as annoying as the real elitists who look down on me when I’m wearing jeans at the mall.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/252 "2005-12-22T22:46:41Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#):
>
> If I send out an invitation to a party and say, “please wear costumes,” or “formal attire, please,” or “please dress like a pirate,” then most people will either think, “sounds like fun” or “yuck.” Many attendees will plan days in advance what they’re going to wear. If you show up in jeans and a t-shirt, you’re being discourteous–if not downright rude. If you don’t think the theme sounds like fun, don’t go!
Symphony, theme= listen to the symphony
No mention of clothing
Restaurant, theme =food
No mention of clothing
The theme sounds like fun. I do not see my or other patrons clothing as part of the theme.
[QUOTE[This extends to life in general. If I just left the ranch and I’m wearing rubber muck boots, torn jeans, and a faded old shirt, I’m going to look for a restaurant where other people are in work clothes. If I went into the finest restaurant in town dressed that way, I’d feel like a party-crasher. It would just be rude.[/QUOTE]
If you are tracking muck and dirt into the restaurant, it would be rude. Otherwise, it is not. There is no reason to feel like a party crasher.
> [@](#):
>
> People who think I’m elitist when I wear a tux are every bit as annoying as the real elitists who look down on me when I’m wearing jeans at the mall.
Wear what you want. I’ll wear what I want. Let’s let everybody else wear what they want.
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/253 "2005-12-22T23:48:20Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#):
>
> And, BTW, here’s another voice saying that formal clothing isn’t uncomfortable-
It’s not uncomfortable to you. It is to me.
I’ll wear it, but I don’t enjoy it like some others seem to. It may be partly because I’m not used to it. But that won’t change because it is completely impractical for me to wear it unless I have to. And that only happens once or twice a year.
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### Author:  [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/254 "2005-12-23T01:39:59Z")
**DocCathode** , I understand your objections. I _usually_ prefer casual attire myself. However, I think you could try to see it from the other side just a little bit.
I rarely get dressed up. Work has gone “corporate casual” (which is about the worst dress code there is: not comfortable enough to be truly casual and not dressy enough that we look good). Most of my hobbies involve outdoor activities and other casual stuff. However, on rare occassions, I do get to dress up. It’s fun. I look nice, my date looks nice, and everyone else looks nice.
Part of the fun is seeing everyone else dressed up. Yes, it’s the ambiance and atmosphere you dismissed earlier. But it is small part of what makes the occassion special. No, seeing you at the table next to me in a fancy restaurant or in a row near me at the symphony isn’t going to ruin my experience. However, it does diminish it in a small way.
By the way, can we dispense with the idea from earlier in the thread that only people who dress up are clothing snobs? Some of the worst clothing snobs I know are teenaged girls obsessed with the hottest, most expensive brand of jeans, Kippy belts, and other casual attire. Plus, it’s not just dress up clothing that’s expensive. I was shopping recently and saw a pair of flip flops for $85. _Flip flops!_
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### Author:  [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/255 "2005-12-23T02:31:51Z")
> [@Veuve\_ClicquotNJ](#):
>
> Risha:
>
> I felt/feel your pain. At 5’10" & 334, I was absolutely limited as to wear I could shop. at 5’10" & 186, my choices are much wider, but still sometimes limited because of my height. I do want to say I’m impressed with (at least in the metro tri-state area) how many consignment stores offer plus sizes now. In years gone by, you would have thought that carrying plus sizes would somehow infect the store with the plague.
>
> VCNJ~
That’s good to hear - I haven’t really looked since college. I _had_ noticed that more stores in general are carrying plus sizes. Problem is, as you noted, tall sizes are still relatively hard to find. (At 6’ 1/2" I kind of need them.) And plus sized tall sizes are almost non-existent. I guess all fat women are 5’4". 🙂
Thank you Lane Bryant for providing me pants. Now just start carrying tall sized shirts and I’ll never need to shop in the men’s section again.
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### Author:  [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/256 "2005-12-23T03:11:34Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> The number of senior citizens keeps growing. I fully expect a return to walking sticks and decorative canes.
Nope. Homeland Security would never allow this. That cane could be a weapon, don’t you know.
Random comments from a “Middle of thread jumper” follow-
I simply cannot see how **DocCathode** can wear jeans and a t-shirt everywhere. Man, I need sleeves on or my arms get cold. Jeans and a flannel shirt for me. Yeah, yeah, I know, the grunge did this to death. But it is still comfortable and functional.
I also cannot see how anyone thinks that sweat pants are comfortable.
I can certainly see the appeal of tweaking establishments that have dress codes simply for the freedom of saying “Up yours! This is America! I can wear whatever I freakin’ want to!” Ben Franklin would have done it.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/257 "2005-12-23T03:47:09Z")
I don’t care what anyone wears so long as they don’t stink. Stinky is not good. Jeans? T-shirt? Fine with me.
Wait, there’s another thing I care about. I hate the noise of flip-flops, especially when people scuff along in them.
The only exception is if I’m hiring you, and that’s only because I know it’s important to some people who might be customers some day.
**Doc** ’s attire wouldn’t phase me in the slightest. I wouldn’t have to avert my eyes or nuffin.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/258 "2005-12-23T04:07:10Z")
Oh, I freely admit to being a clothing snob. I can’t help it. I was one of those little kids who LOVED getting dressed up. My mom would curl my hair, and I’d get to wear a pair of pretty tights (and most of the tights she bought me were comfortable, actually), and a pretty dress.
Until I was about six or seven, I REFUSED to wear pants-dresses only for me.
And I saw a BEAUTIFUL black velvet evening gown with beading that was on clearance (almost all the evening gowns were) that probably would have been no more than 40 bucks with everything taken off. Expensive schmensive-you can look nice for less!
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### Author:  [@Basandre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Basandre)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/259 "2005-12-23T04:38:08Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> How exactly does a suit or gown show respect?
Ok, I know this question is now long past, but I only just slogged through the whole thread…
You (non-specific you) don’t get to decide what other people find respectful. You (specific you) have mentioned that you wear a suit to a loved one’s wedding because they know how much you hate it - perhaps you could run your hand through a garbage disposal for the next wedding that comes up, they’d _really_ know you liked them then! Or maybe… maybe the reason you wear a suit to a wedding is that a suit is a _show of respect_ that they know you hate.
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### Author:  [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/260 "2005-12-23T07:01:56Z")
> [@BoringDad](#):
>
> I also cannot see how anyone thinks that sweat pants are comfortable.
I … can’t … grok that. 😛
Sweats are warm … soft … comfy … forgiving. Plus they don’t pinch my tummy. How can they NOT be comfortable?? In cold weather, jeans are NOT warm. I gave away all my jeans. Now I wear soft pants in the summer and sweats in the winter. 🙂
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