# Why all the hostility toward looking nice?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [December 19, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367 "2005-12-19T23:31:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/81 "2005-12-20T16:44:51Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#):
>
> I’ve just observed that in a lot of the more “personal” threads the persons involved in this forum seem to be disproportionately 1) afflicted with some form of mental illness, 2) afflicted with some form of social ostracism (be it shyness, self-consciousness over physical appearance etc.) or 3) on the lower tiers of the economic ladder.
\*\*Martin Hyde \*\* has pretty much hit the nail on the head. A lot of it comes down to self esteem and class issues. How a person dresses and carries themself indicates a lot about that persons socioeconomic class. A working class guy who all of a sudden starts dressing in Armani might be viewed with a “you think your better than me?” attitude. Conseqently, someone who lacks self esteem might feel uncomfortible wearing nice, flattering clothes. They might think they are “too ugly” when in fact, the colors, patterns and cuts one chooses goes a long way to improving a persons appearance.
It’s one thing to want to be comfortible. I don’t wear a tux if I can get away with a suit. If jeans will do, I don’t wear dress pants. But what I do wear looks put together, even if it isn’t expensive. On weekends, I wear a umbiquitous blue hooded sweatshirt and jeans. But the jeans are a current style and fit and the sweatshirt is in a color and fit that flatters my shape and appearance.
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### Author:  [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/82 "2005-12-20T16:56:29Z")
It seems like there are two issues at play: whether you dress differently based on circumstance (a nice garden tea) and setting (at the White House), and how you dress when you’re standing in the freezer aisle gaping vacantly at the pot pies.
It is important to dress appropriately. It shows that you’re aware of the feelings of other people. Nobody wants to see your spankly red cocktail dress at Great-uncle Ken’s funeral. Nobody needs to see you in a thong at work, unless you work on a metal pole. But ‘expensive, itchy clothing’ and ‘comfy crap from Kmart’ can both be appropriate, as others have noted. Some people’s sniff-sniff-cluck-cluck-ometers are set way too frickin’ high; others are wandering around the Presidential Inauguration in flipflops and tutus (brrr). Most people, and I assume almost everyone here, fall somewhere safely in between. The scale has been tipping more and more toward casual except in certain heavily-defended outposts, like The Symphony and The Formal Dinner. Well, I think we should preserve some time to play dress-up. But if my rags doth offend thee when we’re glaring each other down over the last Sara Lee in the cold case, that’s your baggage.
> [@FaerieBeth](#):
>
> I don’t own many five hundred dollar dresses, but I do maintain a closet with the appropriate articles of clothing for formal events. You don’t have to be an independently wealthy entrepreneur to afford good clothing, nor do you have to be born with a silver spoon in your mouth in order to be intelligent enough to move smoothly in more formal social circles. You just have to be willing to make the effort. Some people are not willing to make that effort.
I agree with this up to ‘intelligent enough’. I wouldn’t say that intelligence in general and social intelligence are necessarily the same. Certainly class doesn’t restrict one’s ability to be socially intelligent, but it always helps to have a head start, of course.
As for the effort - some people do not think making the effort is worth it, that’s the thing. One side feels their lifestyle is inherently desirable, and can’t grasp that the other just doesn’t roll like that.
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/83 "2005-12-20T17:00:04Z")
> [@bouv](#):
>
> And, BTW, if you find formal clothing uncomfortable, then you have ill-fitting clothes (well, except shoes. Those will always suck.) Some people equate a tie with a noose, and feel they are being chocked with a tight collar and piece of cloth wrapped around your neck. Well, if your tie is a noose, loosen it! It’s not that hard. If your collar is too tight, buy a bigger shirt. And again, a suit doesn’t have to be customed tailored and cost $500 to fit well, you just have to try them on in and not buy the first thing you see on the rack.
Nope, they fit fine. They are just usually not at all what I am used to. Strange pockets, odd feeling material. Easy to damage or get dirty.
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### Author:  [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/84 "2005-12-20T17:00:58Z")
Personally, I love dressing up and looking good.
My high school required us to dress professionally every day, and dress _really_ professionally (suit-and-tie level) one day each semester to give several presentations about what we’d learned that semester. Before high school, I hated dressing any nicer than a t-shirt and jeans. It took me until my sophomore year to realize that the respect and attention I got from both sexes increased exponentially the better I dressed.
Since then, dressing up hasn’t bothered me.
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### Author:  [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/85 "2005-12-20T17:12:50Z")
I do secretarial work in an office. Since I came to work here, I’ve been wearing dresses and pantyhose, but I have several co-workers who wear jeans and T-shirts. A few even wear shirts with huge stains, or holes in them, and these are people that I know for a fact have nicer clothes! As a result, our supervisor is now planning to put us all in uniforms consisting of khaki pants and polo shirts.
I am deeply upset that I will now have to dress like a fast food employee just because of a few people that can’t put in a minimum of effort to show that they care. I’m not saying they all need to wear dress clothes, but it would be nice if they could wear work attire that didn’t look like it had been used to wash the car. And I am far from rich; 95% of my work wardrobe comes from thrift shopping.
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### Author:  [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/86 "2005-12-20T17:19:45Z")
> [@MacTech](#):
>
> that $500 dollar suit is also an impractical and illogical use of resources…
>
> $500 could buy more important stuff…like food, or medicine, or computer hardware ;), you know, stuff that’s actually _useful_ and not a bunch of useless cosmetic frippery that screams “look how much money i have to spend on useless stuff!”
>
> yes, to be fair, computer hardware could also qualify under that category, but if forced to choose between a $500 suit and a $500 video card for my computer (as an example), i’d get a lot more use out of the vidcard…those aliens don’t shoot themselves, you kknow, _somebody_ has to do it… 😉
Ah, but how long will a $500 video card last? I can assure you that a well made $500 suit I own has been in use for over a dozen years, how much of you computor equipment that you bought in 1993 are you still using?
So your comment about useless and illogical just doesn’t hold up Mister Spock. 😉
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### Author:  [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/87 "2005-12-20T17:48:46Z")
> [@Necros](#):
>
> I very much suspect that if you went to two gatherings of the same type (say, a cocktail party), and at one there were people in jeans and T-shirts, and at the other were people in nice shirts and pants, that one would find that the nice clothes crew was smarter, better educated, more successful, and in general more interesting to the type of people who frequent the SDMB.
I very much suspect that you are mistaken. It is impossible to infer “smarter, better educated, more successful” from clothing.
Since you’re just "suspect"ing and "guess"ing, I’ll refrain from asking you for a cite.
I agree that there are several issues imbedded in this one thread. One is the idea that “casual” clothes wearers are hostile towards “fancy” clothes wearers. Wear what you want, I’m not about a bunch of hostility. I wear “nice” clothes to the office, since, as others have mentioned, people won’t take you seriously if you are not dressed “for business”. And I’m ok with that. I think that in the engineering business, people expect your work to reflect your appearance - and I want people to be assured that my work is of good quality. So I’ll wear dresses and nice pantsuits to the office.
But what’s all this disparaging of the lowly sweatpant? I love my sweatpants. They are soft and forgiving. I think maybe if more people wear them with a long T-shirt which covers the posterior, then this hatin’ would go away. Yeah, that must be it. 🙂 What folks are despising is the dreaded “sweatpant butt” syndrome.
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### Author:  [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/88 "2005-12-20T18:24:42Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#):
>
> 1. People who care what other people wear are… well, they need lives. There was an MPSIMS thread lately that made me kind of sick wherein the OP commented on women who drop their kids off at school in shitty clothes, even though said women never left their car. That, to me, is pathetic. I don’t notice what other people wear, and I don’t want other people to notice what I wear. So dressing up is pandering to these clothes horses who will nitpick and criticize to death whatever I wear anyway, so what’s the point? No point.
That was my thread; glad I could be of service. The women I asked about did, indeed, get out of their cars. I talked about that thread with my husband–who, at the time, dropped off and picked up our boy–and he said those women looked the same before and after school.
Anyway, I do notice what people wear. I’m somewhat of a clothing enthusiast. I’m sure other enthusiasts, say automobile and writing instrument enthusiasts notice what people are driving and writing with. There’s nothing wrong with that, either. If it makes you feel better to think that people who notice what you’re wearing need to get lives, go for it. Just know that many of them do (have lives) and look fantastic while doing it, too.
[sub]Most of the above post was tongue-in-cheek, so there’s no need for hurt feelings.[/sub]
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### Author:  [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/89 "2005-12-20T18:33:49Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#):
>
> Well, bully for you. Around these parts, $500 is a lot of folk’s monthly mortgage payment.
Oh please. The fact that you live in a region where houses are inexpensive is not that relevant to the discussion.
I don’t mind dressing up, especially for a special occasion. If your suit or other formal wear fits correctly, it won’t be uncomfortable. On the other hand, I very much prefer being able to wear casual clothes on a daily basis, on the job.
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### Author:  [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/90 "2005-12-20T18:38:56Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#):
>
> I very much suspect that you are mistaken. It is impossible to infer “smarter, better educated, more successful” from clothing.
I disagree. You may not like it, but 9 out of 10 times you can make a fairly shrewd guess as to a person’s income level based on what they are wearing.
Does that bother you? If so why?
For instance, if [this man](http://www.mysuitshop.com/images/shop/5330.jpg) approached you on the street, would you react the same as if it was [this man](http://www.hystyleweb.com/bum.jpg) ? What would be your initial guess as to who had the higher income?
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### Author:  [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/91 "2005-12-20T19:01:20Z")
> [@BMalion](#):
>
> I disagree. You may not like it, but 9 out of 10 times you can make a fairly shrewd guess as to a person’s income level based on what they are wearing.
>
> Does that bother you? If so why?
I didn’t mention “income level”. I said “smarter, better educated, more successful” (quoted from your post). I simply don’t think one can infer such from clothing.
> [@](#):
>
> For instance, if [this man](http://www.mysuitshop.com/images/shop/5330.jpg) approached you on the street, would you react the same as if it was [this man](http://www.hystyleweb.com/bum.jpg) ? What would be your initial guess as to who had the higher income?
Of course I would not react the same. The bum is an extreme example. The man in the suit? There’s thousands of them walking around downtown at this moment. They all look the same to me, but their income level probably varies from $50k to $200k per year. I can’t guess their income level solely by their attire.
But, let’s back up a minute. I only got half a thought out earlier (my apologies). I neglected to ask - are you talking about people’s dress as they go to work, or as they go about at other times of the day? Seems like several of us have gone off on different tangents - “I think **BMalion** meant this” “No, I think **BMalion** meant that”. I must admit that I jumped off on my own tangent, thinking you were talking about people on their “off” hours.
Oh, please yourself, **Spectre** - I wasn’t inferring that housing is inexpensive here; I meant that to some people $500 is a lot of money. I was speaking to the idea that _everyone_ should be able to invest $500 in a formal suit. It’s unreasonable to expect that, IMO. That’s relative to the discussion, no?
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### Author:  [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/92 "2005-12-20T19:17:12Z")
> [@UrbanChic](#):
>
> Just know that many of them do (have lives) and look fantastic while doing it, too.
Preach it, sista.
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### Author:  [@lalaith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalaith)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/93 "2005-12-20T19:36:45Z")
I wasn’t going to reply to this thread because I am one of those people who likes dressing up so I can’t explain the opposite viewpoint, but this quote I have to respond to:
> [@MacTech](#):
>
> I think Scott Adams put it best in **The Dilbert Principle** (paraphrased)
>
> "you are the only person you don’t have to look at (barring the short time spent looking in the mirror), \ understand that their appearance only bothers other people and is therefore not worth optomizing…
>
> clothing is the lowest priority for an \, as long as all genitalia is covered and there are no mammary glands flopping around in plain view, then the purpose of clothing is achieved, anything else is wasteful"
I know Adams is going for funny here but I just have to state emphatically it’s not true for all of us. And it’s not even true for most female engineers, despite that crack about “mammary glands.”
I like dressing up. I like being admired. I get a thrill every time some guy stops dead in his tracks to look at me. I smile whenever I think about the man who was staring at me so hard he almost walked into a column. I do think it’s worth optimizing my appearance (not all the time, not when I’m sitting around the house by myself, but on plenty of other occassions). When I go out to the symphony I optimize it to the max in a floor length evening gown, even though I don’t have to. I do it because I want to. It makes me feel good.
And out of all the female engineers I have known (and that’s quite a few) I can only think of one, maybe two, to whom Adams’ comment would even come close to applying.
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### Author:  [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/94 "2005-12-20T19:39:47Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#):
>
> I think maybe if more people wear them [sweatpants] with a long T-shirt which covers the posterior,
Please, for the love of all that is holy and just and good and _right_, NO. Such an ensemble just screams, “I give up.” That’s no kind of message to send, now is it?
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### Author:  [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/95 "2005-12-20T19:42:08Z")
> [@UrbanChic](#):
>
> That was my thread; glad I could be of service. The women I asked about did, indeed, get out of their cars. I talked about that thread with my husband–who, at the time, dropped off and picked up our boy–and he said those women looked the same before and after school.
>
> Anyway, I do notice what people wear. I’m somewhat of a clothing enthusiast. I’m sure other enthusiasts, say automobile and writing instrument enthusiasts notice what people are driving and writing with. There’s nothing wrong with that, either. If it makes you feel better to think that people who notice what you’re wearing need to get lives, go for it. Just know that many of them do (have lives) and look fantastic while doing it, too.
> [sub]Most of the above post was tongue-in-cheek, so there’s no need for hurt feelings.[/sub]
Ok, I have an idea. Dress up in your absolute finest do and duds and have your husband take a picture. Post the picture here and we’ll critique your style…give you a bit of the Joan Rivers treatment. It would only be fair, seeing as you are such a fashion enthusiast and style maven. Why not find out what other people think? Or can you only give it, and not take it?
(I think the lesson we might learn would be that fashion and the judgements you make based on fashion have nothing to do with anything but that vapid, petty, and superficial voice that will cut down people without ruth to boost your own esteem… pretty sad way to get your self-worth if you ask me).
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### Author:  [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/96 "2005-12-20T19:47:49Z")
> [@bouv](#):
>
> And, BTW, if you find formal clothing uncomfortable, then you have ill-fitting clothes
Or pantyhose. If they are loose enough to be comfortable, they will be dangling around your ankles in no time. (Well, for me, anyway. I can’t be comfortable in pantyhose.)
I’m also not particularly comfortable in make-up or fancy hair, just because I need to be so careful all the time. It’s obvious to even a slob like me that smudged or fading make-up looks waaaay worse than freshly touched-up make-up, and that means when I wear it I am constantly aware of how my face looks, and that I shouldn’t touch it, and that if I cry at a wedding or go out in the rain, I have to run to the bathroom to fix myself up.
That is not comfortable.
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### Author:  [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/97 "2005-12-20T20:06:31Z")
> [@devilsknew](#):
>
> I think the lesson we might learn would be that fashion and the judgements you make based on fashion have nothing to do with anything but that vapid, petty, and superficial voice that will cut down people without ruth to boost your own esteem… pretty sad way to get your self-worth if you ask me
Riiight. Because that’s exactly how I said I get my self-worth. My goodness, your mind-reading skills are hyper-developed. Have you considered giving Randi a call to take him up on his offer? I think we’d finally have a winner here, folks.
I said I notice what people are wearing. I take note of what people have on. I acknowledge what people ensconce themselves in. If it’s something I like, I even venture as far as complimenting the person on it.
Oh, and my vapid, petty and superficial voice says hi.
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### Author:  [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/98 "2005-12-20T20:23:45Z")
I don’t dress up very often–I’m a technical writer, and spend most of my time in jeans, T-shirts, various leather or denim jackets, and boots or athletic shoes. I have nothing against folks who like to dress up, and frankly I wish I could sometime.
The problem with me is that I can’t stand most female formal or semi-formal attire. I don’t like dresses, skirts, high heels, panty hose, shirts/blouses made of flimsy or sheer material, makeup, “pretty” jewelry, or fiddly hair. I have avoided formal occasions because I flatly refuse to wear anything approximating a gown. Sometimes I think I have drag-king leanings, because I look at women’s formal wear and I see bare skin, vulnerability, and lack of ability to _move_. At formal occasions, men wear jackets and pants that cover them up, and shoes that, while maybe they’re not the most comfortable things in the world, don’t preclude running or getting out of the way or dealing with a situation if needed. Women’s gowns, especially the really fancy ones, are often very revealing (low-cut, backless, no sleeves, tightly fitted), and formal shoes are almost always of the high-heeled variety. This is all great for the women who enjoy that kind of thing (and I know that’s the majority and I’m the weirdo!), but me personally, I couldn’t go out in public looking like that. I’d feel _wrong_ all evening. If I can’t wear slacks and some kind of jacket, I’m not happy. I’ll dress it up a bit with a nice silk blouse and wear boots instead of heels, but that’s as far as I go. If you want me to wear a dress, then sorry, I’ll have to decline your invitation. If that’s rude, then I guess I’ll just have to be rude.
FWIW, I’m straight and happily married to a guy who understands and supports my clothing choices, but I seem to take most of my sartorial cues from lesbians (I love the way Ellen Degeneres dresses, for example. She even wore a suit when she hosted the Oscars!)
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### Author:  [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/99 "2005-12-20T20:28:52Z")
I think it’s a little ridiculous how people are only looking at the two extremes for their argument. Sure, you can wear an expensive suit to the supermarket and look nice, or wrap yourself in a tarp covered in maggots if you don’t care how you look, _some_ of us just prefer a little decency is all! Sheesh…
My student uniform consists of a t-shirt, shorts, and flip-flops. This is what I’m most comfortable wearing and will wear it whereever I can get away with it.
I realize this is not proper attire in many places so in those cases I wear something a little nicer. Dressing up for me is wearing a collared shirt, slacks, nice shoes, and maybe a sweater. I can be comfortable in this. If you want to wear a jacket and tie, that’s fine, I have no problem with that (I’ve had lots of different suit jackets and they all feel a bit restrictive to me, and don’t get me started on ties, ugh).
I think as long as you have a nice plain shirt, and long pants, and they’re clean, then you look presentable. Jackets and ties are just accessories, not something required for everyone. Unfortunately most people disagree and think I need to dress exactly a certain way to look presentable, and what’s what I resent. There’s a middle ground between fancy and slovenly, which seems to be ignored for some reason.
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### Author:  [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/100 "2005-12-20T20:42:26Z")
> [@Yumblie](#):
>
> I think it’s a little ridiculous how people are only looking at the two extremes for their argument.
I agree with this completely. On the weekends, when I’m going to the grocery store or taking the kids to the park or the movies or shopping, 95% of the time, you’ll catch me in sneakers (I’m totally digging the low-profile, modern ones these days), jeans and a fitted t-shirt. If it’s cold, I’ll swap the t for a sweater. I rarely wear make up. Now, my hair always looks nice, but that’s because I go to the salon frequently (short hair demands it be kept up on a regular basis). When I go to work, that’s a different story altogether, but on the weekends, I’m CasualChic.
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