# Why all the hostility toward looking nice?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [December 19, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367 "2005-12-19T23:31:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/121 "2005-12-21T21:49:17Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> I said no such thing. I said I dress formally for important events in the lives of people I care about.
So are you in the habit of wearing jeans and teeshirts to the weddings, baptisms, funerals, and bar mitzvahs of people you don’t care so much about? 😉
Seriously, in the post I was responding to, you said you wore formal wear to such things. These would be events that call for formal wear. I don’t see how I seriously misrepresented your stance. How is this _not_ wearing formal wear to events that call for it.
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> As far as I am concerned, there are no other events which call for formal dress.
This was where we disagreed, if you can even call it a disagreement. Your definition of “events that call for formal wear” is not as broad as my definition. Meh. Life goes on.
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### Author:  [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/122 "2005-12-21T22:02:41Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> If they’ll let me in wearing a pai of Levis and a Simpsons t-shirt, formal dress is not truly required.
There is a difference between what you ought to do, and what you can get away with doing.
> [@](#):
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> Why wouldn’t you dream of it? Unless you’ve got the chef’s table, he’ll never see your clothes. Who are you dressing up for and why?
You’re dressing for the room. You can have a delicious dinner in your kitchen if you like, and you don’t even have to wear a tie for it anymore.
> [@](#):
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> I won’t be satisfied until we can all be seated in any restaurant wearing whatever we want so long as it satisfies indecent exposure laws and the health code.
That’s what I suspected. That’s why I get irritated.
> [@](#):
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> Why do you see “casual dining” as such a negative thing?
I don’t. If you’re in a restaurant where that’s appropriate, it’s fine. But there are restaurants where it’s not OK. You’re supposed to know this, and dress to the room, or find a room you’re dressed to.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/123 "2005-12-21T22:13:59Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> One forced dress code is as bad as another.
It’s not forced – you don’t want to dress for Chez Snouté, you don’t go.
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### Author:  [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/124 "2005-12-21T22:20:11Z")
And just because the restaurant is not rude enough to kick your undressed butt out the door doesn’t mean that it’s approriate to dress that way. In the same way that talking on your cellphone in a movie is rude regardless of whather management kicks you out for it or not, your undressing affects the other diners negatively. You ARE being rude, even if you’re not taken to task for it.
Of course, your next question is going to be “Why are you so offended by what I am wearing?” and I suspect if you put a little bit of thought into, you can probably think of many things that other people do that irritate you, and are rude. In fact, many of them (like talking on a cellphone in a movie theater) are demmed by the large majority of society to be rude. Same thing with wearing inappropriate clothes to the symphony.
If you STILL don’t get it and want specific examples of how underdressing is rude, I suspect I, and other former restaurant worker Dopers, can tell you tales about instances where we’ve had to deal with people propping bare feet up on other chairs, or lounging around with sweaty armpits exposed under ratty tanktops.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/125 "2005-12-21T22:21:36Z")
> [@saoirse](#):
>
> There is a difference between what you ought to do, and what you can get away with doing.
In some cases , yes. In this case, no.
> [@](#):
>
> You’re dressing for the room.
The room? The room is what? The other diners? I don’t care what they think. The wait staff? I don’t care if they think I’m a slob so long as they also get the impression I that I will treat them well and not make excessive demands or blame them for things that are not their fault.
> [@](#):
>
> You can have a delicious dinner in your kitchen if you like, and you don’t even have to wear a tie for it anymore.
Nobody has yet given me a satisfactory reason why I need to wear a tie at Le Bec Fin, or Morimoto’s either.
[QUOTEThat’s what I suspected. That’s why I get irritated. [/QUOTE]
Why does it irritate you? You can still dress however you want.
> [@](#):
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> I don’t. If you’re in a restaurant where that’s appropriate, it’s fine.
So, I can wear Wranglers and a Sponge Bob Shirt to anything from McDonalds to a five star restaurant? Again, as far as I am concerned, it is appropriate attire.
> [@](#):
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> But there are restaurants where it’s not OK.
Why? Why is it not okay? I want more of an answer than ‘because that is what you are supposed to do.’
> [@](#):
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> You’re supposed to know this,
I know what people tell me I should do. I deny that there is a reason for it. I deny that it is necessary.
> [@](#):
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> and dress to the room, or find a room you’re dressed to.
I’m currently wearing a pair of Wranglers, a camoflage t-shirt bearing a slogan in white letters “Ha! Now you can’t see me!”, a green yarmulke, and plastic beach sandals I wear around the house to avoid tracking dirt everywhere. I just have to change to sneakers, and I am dressed for any room on the planet.
**Bordelond** But if you do want to go, you must meet a dress code which serves no purpose and exists entirely due to cultural inertia. Why is formal dress required?
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/126 "2005-12-21T22:27:26Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> **Bordelond** But if you do want to go, you must meet a dress code which serves no purpose and exists entirely due to cultural inertia.
And? Must everything have a reason?
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Why is formal dress required?
Why not? It’s not worth questioning.
Sheesh. Must life be a constant struggle against conformity every waking moment for some people? Pick your dang battles, already.
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### Author:  [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/127 "2005-12-21T22:28:23Z")
I’m definitely among those class of people who used to go around looking like re-warmed crap when I was in law school. It’s not that I didn’t own expensive clothes or lived in a trailer or was hostile to dressing nicely at all-I was really just very very tired and more concerned with memorizing future interests or whatever godforsaken class I was suffering through that day (At 38K a year, so would you). Oftentimes I would be rushing to the gym after school so I sometimes wore my gym gear to school. Does it help that it was designer? haha
I look back on those days fondly-now that I work and have (annoying) clients I have to do the shiny hair, manicured/pedicured and expensive suit downtown lawyer look and I don’t mind that either-it’s part of my job. But for three years I got to wander around in sneaks and tight running pants and sports bras-it fit my lifestyle and made happy and that’s what matters.
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### Author:  [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/128 "2005-12-21T22:31:32Z")
> [@Necros](#):
>
> Of course, your next question is going to be “Why are you so offended by what I am wearing?” and I suspect if you put a little bit of thought into, you can probably think of many things that other people do that irritate you, and are rude. In fact, many of them (like talking on a cellphone in a movie theater) are demmed by the large majority of society to be rude. Same thing with wearing inappropriate clothes to the symphony.
But talking on a cell phone in a movie theater interferes with other people’s ability to hear the movie. My dressing casually in a fancy restaurant just doesn’t interfere with your ability to eat there in the same way.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/129 "2005-12-21T22:34:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> You ARE being rude, even if you’re not taken to task for it.
I am NOT being rude, simply because you say it is so.
> [@](#):
>
> Of course, your next question is going to be “Why are you so offended by what I am wearing?” and I suspect if you put a little bit of thought into, you can probably think of many things that other people do that irritate you, and are rude. In fact, many of them (like talking on a cellphone in a movie theater) are demmed by the large majority of society to be rude. Same thing with wearing inappropriate clothes to the symphony.
I accept that a cellphone in the theater is rude because it prevents others from hearing the performance. How does my dress prevent others from enjoying their meal.
> [@](#):
>
> If you STILL don’t get it and want specific examples of how underdressing is rude, I suspect I, and other former restaurant worker Dopers, can tell you tales about instances where we’ve had to deal with people propping bare feet up on other chairs,
Where did I say anything about putting my bare feet on a chair? What does that have to do with anything I’ve said? Putting your bare feet on a chair has nothing to do with the clothes you are wearing.
> [@](#):
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> or lounging around with sweaty armpits exposed under ratty tanktops.
Here, I will grant that exposing your armpits to other diner is unappetizing and thus rude. One of the reasons I wear t-shirts is that you can’t see my armpits. Since you can’t see my armpits, I fail to see how the rattiness of a t-shirt is relevant.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/130 "2005-12-21T22:39:02Z")
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> And? Must everything have a reason?
#1 Yes, for me it must.
#2 So you admit that there is no reason, that the practice cannot be defended by logic of any kind, and have fallen back on mom and dad’s “Why? Because I said so.”?
> [@](#):
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> Why not? It’s not worth questioning.
Why not? Have you read this thread?
It isn’t worth questioning? That would make it unique in the entire history of human customs.
> [@](#):
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> Sheesh. Must life be a constant struggle against conformity every waking moment for some people? Pick your dang battles, already.
I do pick my battles. I fight against those practices that make no sense, and are required for no reason.
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### Author:  [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/131 "2005-12-21T22:39:15Z")
You would think that the sheer obnoxiousness with which so many people speak out _against_ dressing up would be all the reason anyone needs to justify looking sharp.
As in so many things, irony abounds.
Me, I take pleasure in dressing well. And no, I don’t always do it, or spend a lot to do it. But one reason I do it is that when I look like a shlub, I _feel_ like a shlub.
Good clothing is as legitimate a pleasure as a good meal or a good wine, and lasts longer.
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### Author:  [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/132 "2005-12-21T22:45:07Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Here, I will grant that exposing your armpits to other diner is unappetizing and thus rude.
And, if your armpits are smelly, they could interfere with someone’s ability to taste their food (because taste and smell are so closely linked).
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> And? Must everything have a reason?
If I have to do something I dislike doing, I’m going to insist on a reason.
If my appearance bothers you so much, just _don’t look at me_. Ask to be seated at another chair at the table or at another table if I’m in your line of sight, if you want. I don’t understand this desire to make everyone wear dressy clothes, whether they want to or not. If you want to dress up and go somewhere that I consider casual, I’m not going to make a big deal out of it, and I don’t understand why anyone would.
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### Author:  [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/133 "2005-12-21T22:54:39Z")
Sticking with the restaurant theme, do you think that when you go to a nice place to eat that you are plunking down all of your hard-earned cash on the food and the service? Restaurants spend a lot of money on things like the prestige of the chef, location and decor. When you go to a restaurant you ARE part of the decor, and other diners DO expect that you are dressed appropriately for your surroundings. Please don’t destroy the atmosphere for everyone else in the place just because you’re too lazy or non-comformist. Restaurants don’t hang up giant clown heads on the walls, and they don’t appreciate it when people who should be in suits come in dressed in shorts and tanktops. If you WANT a place for shorts and tanks, perhaps you should check out the place with the giant clown head. 😉
In most societal situations, everyone expects that everyone else knows the rules of the game, and goes along with them, and therefore nothing needs to be said. It appears from my experiences IRL and in the thtread that, unfortunately, there are people who Just Don’t Get It. That’s why I started this thread. And I’ve definitely gotten responses from the type of people I was talking about in the OP. So that’s good, at least.
I guess maybe those of us who rebel against the slob factor will have to take a stand. Next time I’m in a nice restaurant, and some joker walks in with a jeans/t-shirt combo, I might have to mention it to the management. I guess we’ll see what happens. Not sure I can make a call either way. But I am paying for the atmosphere, and I resent you trying to take that away from me.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/134 "2005-12-21T23:00:56Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#):
>
> You would think that the sheer obnoxiousness with which so many people speak out _against_ dressing up would be all the reason anyone needs to justify looking sharp.
I am only speaking out against being required to dress up. I tend to look pretty sharp in the aforementioned jeans and t-shirt. Though, I sometimes accessorize with jewelry, or one of my walking sticks.
> [@](#):
>
> Me, I take pleasure in dressing well.
I am, in my opinion, dressed well.
> [@](#):
>
> And no, I don’t always do it, or spend a lot to do it. But one reason I do it is that when I look like a shlub, I _feel_ like a shlub.
I honestly don’t feel like a shlub. T-shirts and jeans is who I am. They are the uniform of a thousand adventures yet to come.
> [@](#):
>
> Good clothing is as legitimate a pleasure as a good meal or a good wine, and lasts longer.
I agree. These Wranglers are some good clothes. My coat is a hooded black thing two sizes too big. I first learn to sew repairing that coat. My mother and sister hate it. But in that coat I am the monk of some strange order. I am a wizard who can produce wonders from his pockets. I am a faceless aparition floating down the sidewalk next to a busy street. Open, it’s cool and breezy. Closed, the coat is warm and wateproof. It folds up to make a servicable pillow. It also makes one hell of a blanket. I must have the had that coat for a decade now. For me, _that_ is good clothing.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/135 "2005-12-21T23:09:20Z")
> [@Necros](#):
>
> Sticking with the restaurant theme, do you think that when you go to a nice place to eat that you are plunking down all of your hard-earned cash on the food and the service?
Not entirely no.
> [@](#):
>
> Restaurants spend a lot of money on things like the prestige of the chef, location and decor. When you go to a restaurant you ARE part of the decor, and other diners DO expect that you are dressed appropriately for your surroundings.
I repeat, exactly how and why are t-shirt and jeans not appropriate dress? I repeat, as far as I am concerned, they are.
> [@](#):
>
> Please don’t destroy the atmosphere for everyone else in the place just because you’re too lazy or non-comformist.
Exactly how does what I wear destroy the atmosphere?
> [@](#):
>
> Restaurants don’t hang up giant clown heads on the walls, and they don’t appreciate it when people who should be in suits come in dressed in shorts and tanktops.
Again, you just repeat that I should be in a suit, without saying why. Again, I say t-shirt and jeans is perfectly appropriate.
> [@](#):
>
> If you WANT a place for shorts and tanks, perhaps you should check out the place with the giant clown head.
Yet again you say that that a four star restaurant is not a place for t-shirts and jeans without saying why. Yet again, I repeat that a four star restaurant IS a place for t-shirts and jeans.
> [@](#):
>
> In most societal situations, everyone expects that everyone else knows the rules of the game, and goes along with them, and therefore nothing needs to be said. It appears from my experiences IRL and in the thtread that, unfortunately, there are people who Just Don’t Get It.
You for example. You keep repeating saying “because that’s the rule.” Why is it the rule.
> [@](#):
>
> I guess maybe those of us who rebel against the slob factor will have to take a stand. Next time I’m in a nice restaurant, and some joker walks in with a jeans/t-shirt combo, I might have to mention it to the management.
T-shirt and jeans do not a slob make.
> [@](#):
>
> I guess we’ll see what happens. Not sure I can make a call either way. But I am paying for the atmosphere, and I resent you trying to take that away from me.
How EXACTLY does what I wear take away your atmosphere?
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/136 "2005-12-21T23:10:39Z")
But what is wrong with a nice dress shirt and a pair of khakis? It doesn’t have to be a stiff, formal suit. You can be comfortable without being slovenly.
Hell, I’ve discovered that one of the most comfortable things in life is a long, full skirt.
At home, I wear pj pants and baby tees, but when I go out, I usually try to wear nice, neat jeans and a pretty top. I feel better when I make an effort to look good.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/137 "2005-12-21T23:30:55Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> But what is wrong with a nice dress shirt and a pair of khakis?
Two things.
I object to dress codes in general.
And I have never owned a pair of khakis I found comfortable.
> [@](#):
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> You can be comfortable without being slovenly.
A t-shirt and jeans is not slovenly. I only get to slovenly when I forget to do the laundry or when life is going really badly.
> [@](#):
>
> At home, I wear pj pants and baby tees, but when I go out, I usually try to wear nice, neat jeans and a pretty top. I feel better when I make an effort to look good.
I think I look just fine in jeans and a t-shirt. Again, if I’m in the mood to wear something special, I can accesorize with jewelry, a walking stick, or sometimes my hooded cloak (it’s wool and great in the rain).
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/138 "2005-12-22T01:02:47Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> And I have never owned a pair of khakis I found comfortable.
I’ll back you up on the khakis there.
If the restaurant calls for it, and it gonna be a $200 dollar bill for two, I will probably put on the dress pants, and jacket.
Thankfully, in Colorado, there is no need to go to such extremes to get a very good meal. In the mountains, and most restaurants in the front range, most people will think you just came from a wedding or funeral if your dressed up.
We just about always frequent restaurants with a bar. I can’t imagine putting on a tie to do so (as a previous poster does). It just isn’t the code up here, thank God.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/139 "2005-12-22T01:49:16Z")
Well, fine, but what about a nice, pressed pair of jeans and a dressy type shirt? (Although there HAS to be a pair of nice, dressy type slacks for men that are comfortable.)
Maybe they aren’t slovenly on their own, but jeans and tee-shirts are not always appropriate for certain occassions.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-hostility-toward-looking-nice/336367/140 "2005-12-22T02:46:29Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> Well, fine, but what about a nice, pressed pair of jeans and a dressy type shirt?
That sounds fine, but why?
> [@](#):
>
> (Although there HAS to be a pair of nice, dressy type slacks for men that are comfortable.)
I’m sure there are., But, are there slacks that I personally will find comfortable, in a price range I find sane?
> [@](#):
>
> Maybe they aren’t slovenly on their own, but jeans and tee-shirts are not always appropriate for certain occassions.
As far as I am concerned, those occassions are limited to business situations, and important events in the lives of people I care about, and who have requested formal dress. For everything else, jeans and t-shirts are appropriate attire.
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