# Why all the push for Jobs Building Submarines? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 30, 2024, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964 "2024-04-30T13:03:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2024, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/21 "2024-04-30T22:01:20Z")
I saw an ad like this last week in Boston. I assumed it was for the Portsmouth shipyard in Kittery. But I really don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2024, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/22 "2024-04-30T23:16:39Z")
> [@robby](#): > > But with all that said, there seems to be a real push to build the U.S. submarine force back up after a couple of decades of decline (in terms of quantity, not quality). This will take at least a couple of decades to accomplish, so there may be some career job security. Unless they change their minds again. It should be noted that the design and construction of submarines is a highly specialized industry which is very different from building surface vessels; while a large commercial shipyard could at least build out the hull and powerplant of a conventional frigate, destroyer, or light cruiser, only Newport News and Electric Boat could built a Virginia class nuclear submarine. Not only are the processes and requirements different for a hull that has to withstand many times atmospheric pressure but there are an enormous number of features on a submarine that are classified, requiring a cleared workforce and secure facilities. I’d agree it is the work of a decade just to build up the workforce, and more to start building modern attack submarines in large quantities. > [@robby](#): > > Exactly. The U.S. and its allies (like Australia) are worried about China. I think the Pentagon is realizing that aircraft carriers and other surface vessels are vulnerable to drones and missiles, which can overwhelm a surface ship’s defenses. > > But it is still very, very difficult to detect a submerged submarine at sea. And modern submarines are absolutely lethal in a shooting war, especially against anything that floats. They are also the best platform to counter an enemy submarine. China has a large navy in quantity but it is not a ‘blue water’ navy that could operate either in the open Pacific or even sustain itself in the Indian Ocean. However, it isn’t intended to operate that far; it has enough reach and firepower to cover the East and South China Sea and provide enough targets to dilute a technically more capable naval force while throwing mass quantities of missiles and drones at opponents. Whether that strategy would ultimately be successful or not (I have my doubts) they could likely make it costly enough for the US to not want to enter into direct conflict, and the loss of an aircraft carrier or even one or two _Virginia_ or even older _Los Angeles_ or _Seawolf_ attack submarines would be a substantial blow to prestige and billions of dollars of lost investment. Agreed that it is difficult to detect a submarine out in broad ocean area; however, within the shallower depth of the East China Sea and confined space in the Taiwan Strait, US submarines may find much of the advantage from features designed for North Atlantic and Pacific blue water operations somewhat blunted, and even operations in the deeper South China sea may be more difficult as China deploys their surveillance network. With the home court advantage of having land based air cover and missile basing they can keep surface ships at bay, forcing the submarine fleet into what is essentially guided missile frigate duty with fraction of the VLS capacity at two or three times the cost of an _Arleigh Burke_ destroyer. I can’t see how trying to build more subs in the next couple of decades is really going to prepare the US Navy for such a conflict in the near term; certainly not before the plans for a 2027 invasion of Taiwan that Xi and his military leaders have been strongly hinting at. Maybe someone in the Department of the Navy is a nostalgic fan of that _SeaQuest DSV_ show which predicted vast colonies of people in undersea settlements and submarine piracy. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2024, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/23 "2024-04-30T23:25:45Z")
The Navy is apparently building a whole new class of SSBNs over the next couple of decades [Columbia-class submarine - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia-class_submarine) - that’s going to take a bunch of people ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/24 "2024-04-30T23:32:43Z")
But they are doing so at very low rate production; projected delivery of the lead boat is ~2030 (expect a 3-4 year delay at minimum) and the last of 12 at 2042 (more like 2048-2050), so probably building about one boat a year. At an estimated cost of more than US$9B per hull, it is not a small program (approaching the same cost as the LGM-35 _Sentinel_ ICBM program) but it is one shipyard, so there is a limit to how many people they can physical bring in to do the work. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/25 "2024-05-01T00:14:56Z")
As always, you make lots of good points, @Stranger_On_A_Train. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > …Maybe someone in the Department of the Navy is a nostalgic fan of that _SeaQuest DSV_ show which predicted vast colonies of people in undersea settlements and submarine piracy. This show came out when I was a junior officer on one of the U.S. Navy’s newest nuclear submarines, and for some public relations reason [Roy Scheider](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Scheider) went to sea with us for a day to see what it like to be on a submarine at sea, and to ostensibly see a submarine captain in action. He was accompanied by [Robert Ballard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ballard). I got to talk to both of them briefly. Ballard was much more interesting than Scheider, as I recall. I’ve never seen the show, though. From all accounts it was pretty missable. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/26 "2024-05-01T01:09:07Z")
Why _DOE_? The subs are built by contracts through the DOD. . . Sure reactors are managed by DOE, but the hull isn’t. Tripler We’re having similar hiring drives here too. . . ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/27 "2024-05-01T02:21:25Z")
Subway has more franchises than anyone. Of course people are needed to build submarines. Artists encouraged to apply. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/28 "2024-05-01T02:23:31Z")
> [@robby](#): > > This show came out when I was a junior officer on one of the U.S. Navy’s newest nuclear submarines, and for some public relations reason [Roy Scheider](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Scheider) went to sea with us for a day to see what it like to be on a submarine at sea, and to ostensibly see a submarine captain in action. He was accompanied by [Robert Ballard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ballard). I got to talk to both of them briefly. Ballard was much more interesting than Scheider, as I recall. > > I’ve never seen the show, though. From all accounts it was pretty missable. Scheider must have been shocked that the submarine didn’t have fifteen feet of overhead deck clearance with sultry mood lighting and a moon pool with a talking dolphin. But then, he was probably just glad to not have to face a shark and explain why he defamed the entire clade of _Elasmobranchii_ just to make a quick buck. Apparently Michael Ironside took over the role after Scheider left, which I find shocking because I can’t believe the show got renewed for even a second series. I think Ballard was a consultant on the show (at least, early on) and is generally a really smart guy. I attended a talk a number of years ago where he talked about the discovery of hydrothermal vents and climate change impacts in the ocean long before people were paying much attention to that. > [@Tripler](#): > > Why _DOE_? The subs are built by contracts through the DOD. . . Sure reactors are managed by DOE, but the hull isn’t. Nuc and propulsion is DoE; sonar, comms, and launch systems (among other things) are covered by DoD. Generally, security clearances are reciprocal between departments but there can be program-specific clearances that require additional investigation. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/29 "2024-05-01T02:43:53Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > a big back-and-forth about what Australia would do about submarines, and now they’ve settled on US submarines with nuclear power technology. But… they don’t want to upset mother country UK. The question of submarines is ongoing. The projected costs of the AUKUS deal is so mind numbingly huge that it becomes difficult to grasp. That said it isn’t a matter of not annoying the UK, we haven’t cared about that in a very long time. Australia had already entered into a contract to build a French designed conventionally powered submarine, but that ended badly, and needed a lot of diplomacy to heal the rift. We do have close ties with the UK, but also the US. Huge contracts like a submarine are understood to be highly competitive and exceedingly complex. The hope is that the AUKUS consortium can bring economies of scale and additional capability to a long term next generation submarine. Some of these subs will be built outside the US, with both the UK and Australia cutting steel. The Oz boats would be built not far from me here in Adelaide, by the same outfit that built the Collins class submarines. It is a big deal, partly in that for the first time the USA are allowing their reactors to reach another country other than the UK. It wasn’t that long ago they vetoed reactors going into a Canadian sub. It is also a huge deal that Australia is quietly going with a nuclear solution. There was a time when this was political death. The big problem for the shorter term is that Australia really needs an interim solution to bridge over from our diesel electric Collins class subs. These, whist very capable, are getting well into their lifespan. So the mooted interim is for us to get (buy/lease) three Virginia class boats. That isn’t a trivial issue and there has been a lot of discussion as to whether there is enough capacity to build them and also meet the USN’s own needs. Indeed it has made it to the point of difficult questions being asked in Congress. So little surprise that there is a lot of effort going into increasing capacity. The sudden need for three more Virginia class boats before closing the line is a really big ask. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/30 "2024-05-01T03:42:43Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Nuc and propulsion is DoE… To expand on this, U.S. Navy nuclear reactors are the responsibility of [Naval Reactors (NR)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Reactors), which (per Wikipedia) “has authority and reporting responsibilities within both the [Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Sea_Systems_Command) and the [National Nuclear Security Administration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Nuclear_Security_Administration).” NAVSEA is part of DoD, and NNSA is part of DoE. NR is run by a Navy 4-star admiral. Since the program’s inception, there have been eight Directors of Naval Reactors, starting with [Admiral Hyman G. Rickover](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_G._Rickover). Rickover started the tradition of personally interviewing every prospective nuclear-trained naval officer. I interviewed with the third director (Admiral Bruce DeMars) a few months before I graduated from university and got commissioned as a Navy ensign. It was a memorable interview–I think he was channeling his inner Rickover. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/31 "2024-05-01T04:26:10Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Why _DOE_? The subs are built by contracts through the DOD. . . Sure reactors are managed by DOE, but the hull isn’t. I live in Euclid where a BWXT facility is, and have recently considered a position there. So BOE is stuck in my head (they build reactors and reactor components here). I imagine other locations that promote open positions through the Build Subs website would require other clerarances ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/32 "2024-05-01T04:46:56Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Rickover started the tradition of personally interviewing every prospective nuclear-trained naval officer. I always thought that Rickover had a number of clear insights about how to manage an effective organization. > **[Doing a Job - The Management Philosophy of Adm. Hyman G. Rickover](https://govleaders.org/rickover.htm)** > > Excerpt from a speech Adm. Hyman Rickover (1900-1986) gave at Columbia University in 1982 outlining his leadership style. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/33 "2024-05-01T16:04:08Z")
I’ve seen the ads (mainly watching streaming MLB games). Possibly they are part of the DPA Title III effort started in 2021: > The president signed on Dec. 21, 2021 three determinations permitting the use of the Defense Production Act (DPA) to strengthen the U.S. submarine industrial base. > **[Defense Production Act Title III Presidential Determinations for Submarine...](https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/2882805/defense-production-act-title-iii-presidential-determinations-for-submarine-indu/)** > > The president signed three determinations permitting the use of the Defense Production Act to strengthen the U.S. submarine industrial base. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/34 "2024-05-01T16:09:26Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I always thought that Rickover had a number of clear insights about how to manage an effective organization. Rickover was excellent at PR, too. I believe it was he who started the trend of naming submarines after states and cities (USS Texas, USS Los Angeles, etc.) instead of naming after fish species because it would win more public support. “Fish don’t vote.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/35 "2024-05-01T16:11:58Z")
I’ve heard a little about this. A lot of people around here work for Electric Boat, or have retired from there. The retirement problem was mentioned above. It’s not unusual in many industries now but Electric Boat is well supported by defense spending and isn’t going to downsize of change direction. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/36 "2024-05-01T16:13:06Z")
You can also live in RI, and work at EB at Quonset Point. They have been running a training center right on the RI/CT border for a few years now. [https://www.westerlyedcenter.org/ed-overview/](https://www.westerlyedcenter.org/ed-overview/) ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/37 "2024-05-01T16:27:02Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I interviewed with the third director (Admiral Bruce DeMars) I interviewed with Kinnaird McKee. I think he was trying to be the anti-Rickover. No yelling, no ridiculous requests, no belittling. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/38 "2024-05-01T16:31:43Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The commercial I saw for this specifically mentioned the [AUKUS alliance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AUKUS), with a goal of helping Australia acquire submarines to counter China. I think eventually Australia may acquire the expertise to build its own. I actually do think the world’s navies will be going more submarine based. 1. Submarines are cheaper to operate than surface vessels, for the most part. 2. Nuclear submarines are harder to defeat, in a lot of ways, than surface vessels. 3. With the ability to now fire long range cruise and anti-ship missiles, not just torpedoes or SLBMs, submarines can now do things they couldn’t in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/39 "2024-05-01T16:34:32Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > the company that builds US submarines (General Dynamics Electric Boat > > I know better but my mind cannot stop envisioning “Electric Boat” as a manufacturer of toys for bathtub use. > > The reality is much more interesting. > > > The company was founded in 1899 by Isaac Rice as the Electric Boat Company to build John Philip Holland’s submersible ship designs, which were developed at Lewis Nixon’s Crescent Shipyard in Elizabeth, New Jersey. Holland VI was the first submarine that this shipyard built, which became USS Holland when it was commissioned into the United States Navy on April 11, 1900—the first submarine to be officially commissioned. The success of Holland VI created a demand for follow-up models (A class or Plunger class) that began with the prototype submersible Fulton built at Electric Boat. Some foreign navies were interested in Holland’s latest submarine designs, and so purchased the rights to build them under licensing contracts through the company; these included the United Kingdom’s Royal Navy, the Imperial Japanese Navy, the Imperial Russian Navy, and the Royal Netherlands Navy. Little bit of trivia, the Lewis Nixon mentioned was the grandfather of Captain Lewis Nixon who was written about in the book _Band of Brothers._ He was played by Ron Livingston in the miniseries. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2024, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964/40 "2024-05-01T19:24:45Z")
It didn’t seem worth starting a separate thread for this, but check out this article (gift link) with amazing photos in today’s _New York Times_: > **[Inside a Navy Submarine Navigating the Arctic](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/30/us/politics/inside-navy-submarine-arctic.html?unlocked_article_code=1.ok0.aDec.D89mYhW8UBW0&smid=url-share)** > > A Times photojournalist embarked on a nuclear-powered attack sub to see how the Pentagon is training for a potential war below the frozen sea. This is the same class of submarine I was on. I also went to the Arctic back in 1993. My submarine was the first one of its class to break through the pack ice just like the article describes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-all-the-push-for-jobs-building-submarines/1000964.md?page=3)