Why are all Pagan's and Witches looked at as evil?

Great Debates
21

Good to meet you darkrose. I’m just some dewt. An old tradition of the Wiccans is secrecy. It was a tradition born of neccesity. Now it is a tradition of habit and convenience. Witchcraft is not a cause, it’s a spiritual journey. It’s not your job to convince people that not all witches are bad.

And which witches were called fake? Fortune Tellers or other entertainers? Sabrina the teenaged witch? If you are talking about the Wiccan religion being not taken seriously, you are wrong. There are no more witch hunts, or burnings at the stake… I’ve even heard unsubstantiated rumours that handfasting is a legal ceremony in BC, Canada. (anybody more patient and apt with with search engines may feel free to debunk or back that with a reference. :slight_smile: )
Not to mention that there are a helluva lotta fakes out there and…

(we now interupt your regularly schedule post for the following bulliten.)

wait… wait…

Dylan comes to the rescue:

:: Dylan reading, dewt typing like fiend ::

“One very significant trend in the last ten years is the growth of legally recognized [pagan religious groups - groups that have all the tax-exempt privileges and other rights of religious organizations.” pg 419 (Drawing Down the Moon, Margot Adler, 1986, Beacon Press)

see… see…

:: thanks hon ::

We now return you to your regularly scheduled post; already in progress.

Who called you wrong? A fundemental of some sort? (no offence meant to any non specified, zealous evangelists) You’ll find, as you talk to people, that they will either not give a damn, be really offended and try to save your soul or something or, in rare cases actually be interested. These types of people, you can usually pick out fairly easily after spending any significant time with them. You’re wasting your time otherwise. And stressing yourself out.

Furthermore, and this is my own personal opinion… That the wiccan religion is really quite great the way it is. Small. Indvidualistic. Personal. Mostly, IMHO it’s greatest asset is that it’s very eclectic. When your religion get’s too big, it can only satisfy the spiritual needs of the majority. (and even that’s debatable) Traditionally, covens comprise of only 13 people, if even. Most witches I know are solitary practitionserseses.

22

First off, Merry meet, darkrose.

I’m with dewt. I like it being small and personal…that’s a main reason I like being a Witch. And I tend less to rely on magick, even being a witch…I’m just not into the rituals.

One small nitpick for AuntiePam. I know I’m not persecuted for what I believe. Hell, I’ve “come out,” if you will, to a Christian message board, and no one thinks any less of me. Does this disappoint me? NO! I think it’s great! I don’t have to hide what I believe in, and everyone’s managing to respect each other. I agree that some Witches are in it for rebellion, and not based on a true belief. But not all of them.

23

Another factor could be that this Wiccan seems Euro-centric. What do you think of Black forms of paganism, including voodoo? Kissing the ground as the Pope does is a voodoo ritual.

24

Perhaps it has something to do with the number of people who profess to be ‘Pagan’ when they mean to say they are Wiccan. Being brand new to the message boards I apologize in advance if i am beatng a dead horse, but the term pagan simply means:
***1) One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew; a heathen.
2) One who has no religion.
3) A non-Christian.
4) A hedonist.
**
(definitions courtesy of http://www.dictionary.com) *

Pagan means anyone who isn’t an adherent of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic Western religions, which leaves a lot of unfilled space in the category. It’s a slightly provincial world-view, but then again, no one is perfect. All Wiccans are pagans, since they obviously practice none of the above, but not all pagans are Wiccan.

No hate mail, just a divergent opinion. As others have pointed out, while you believe it’s Magick, one Christian would believe it’s the grace of God, another Christian would believe it’s because they were laying on hands and an agnostic would believe that it’s simply a matter of timing that the body’s immune system kicking in.

Unfortunately, you’re running afoul of your own idea. You stipulate that your interpretation of Magick is universal and that we can’t really disagree with it, we can only call it by different names than the ones you chose. If, on the other hand, we don’t think there is Magick, doesn’t that imply we’re wrong, whether we understand your religion or not?
Freedom of religion means that someone can think that you’re wrong, just as you can belive that they are wrong. It means that we should tolerate different religions, it doesn’t mean that we have to accept the validity of any.

25

Well, you won,t find pagans slammed around much at this MB. Christians, yes, are slammed around, but pagans, no.

However, prepare for one of my “rants”. One of the reasons, and the biggest single reason wiccans/neopagans have a problem with public perceptions is they insist on calling themselves “Witches”. Now, there are “other” witches, the original claimants to the title, and who still use that title to refer to themselves to this day- the Satanists. Now, wicca/neopaganism is about are far away from Satanism as a religion can be, but Wiccans still insist on calling what they do “witchcraft”, even tho they know very well the poor public perception of that “loaded” word. However, there is a group of folks that WANT to be percieved of as “bad”, and insist on using that word. Well, Ok, but when folks get you mixed up with the REAL “witches”, don’t whine about poor public perceptions.

(And even tho I have done this rant before, I know there is someone who is going to say that the Christians turned the old celtic word into a perjorative. Nope, the word “Witch”, altho derived from the term “wicca/wicce”, came into its own, as a word to differ a “demon-worshiper” form a 'wise-woman", around the time of Shakespear. “demon-worshiper” etc, was the 1st, and still is the primary definition of the unique word “witch”. source: OED)

26

You’re an excellent example. I’ve been reading and enjoying your posts here for a long time, and while my memory isn’t what it used to be (I’m very old), I don’t remember reading anything about you being a wiccan (or a witch).

You’ve probably mentioned it, maybe just in passing, or in a thread appropriate to the subject.

I think of you as an enlightened, tolerant, loving person, and I’ve learned from you. Now that I think about it, I’m not surprised that you’re a witch (or wiccan). But I haven’t thought of you in terms of any religion.

Maybe that’s because you’re practicing what you believe, and not just preaching it.

My god, maybe you’ll start a trend.

27

So magick is like The Force.

Actually I see it as largely a recreation of ancient customs. In medieval days they were seen as the unsophisticated, unenlightened country bumkins, when being such was really illegal.

I have met a few Pagans/Wiccans through working the renaissance festival, which seems to attract them. I have never seen an official service, but I have seen numerous drum circles. Amazing sight and sound. Girls gyrating in the spirit and guys pounding percussion. Of course, I am just quietly drinking my beer and watching, getting into the dance area is not really a thing unwelcomed guys do. But watching is ok.

I did see a handclasping. A year-and-a-day commitment between a couple. An Engagement. This had a much more masculine type of ritual with sentinals guarding the North, South, East, West. With the master(?) addressing each.

I went to the master after the ceremony and mentioned the setup was similar to what the freemasons do, to which he replied yes, but I was in the North. The Freemasons ignore the North. It is what is dark, mysterious.

I may have mentioned more that Pagan/Wiccan rituals.

28

AuntiePam:

No, I tend not to mention my religion on the boards a lot. One reason is that I only recently converted to being a Witch after a long period of not really believing in anything. The other reason is a lot like you said: what religion you are isn’t as important to me as how a person ACTS. That was shaped from childhood in me, from dealing with my family, who says they’re Christian and act like… shudder

Anyway, thank you for your post. It meant a lot, hon.

29

Give me a fucking break.

Please tell me how often Tris and Polycarp are “slammed around” for their Christianity?

We slam people for being assholes. If they happen to be Christians, so be it.

In fact, we don’t even slam people, we slam posts which are assholish. For example, many of your posts do not result in being “slammed,” Danny. This one, however, is quite HIGH in assholish content, it’s a loaded an insincere assertion, and it is not backed by facts.

In short, it should be retracted.

If, however, you do feel this place to en masse treat Christians so badly, maybe you should go.

Yer pal,
Satan

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30

Now, now, satan, don’t take that personally. It is true that this board attacks “liberal” Christians (like Tris, Poly & me) no more than anyone else, ie no “slams”. But if you are a born-again “fundie” pagan, or an arch-conservative Jew, or any other “fundie” type of faith, you are not attacked anywhere near as much as you are if you are a “fundie” type Christian. Look at your own post, just now to FoG. The SDMB is less tolerant of Christians than any other faith.

Look thru the list of GD here, and in the past. How many have denounced Paganism? None. Othodox Judaism?- a couple have attacked the OT, but never “Jews”. Muslims? Nope, home free. Buddhism? Nope. But here and in the PIT, there has been several anti-Christian threads.

Now, I will admit, that here in the USA, we are exposed to more of the “fringe crazies” from Christianity- as we have more Christians. And those fringe crazies, usually “fundies” are good targets,I must admit, and I have taken my fair share of swipes at them also.

Just look at 2 threads: FoG telling everyone Christainity is good, and JC loves you: and you all line up to attack him. Some new guy, a Pagan, posts a similar message, and it is all “merry meets” and “glad to have ya’s”, with a few skeptics chiming in they “don’t belive in magic”, true, but nobody attacks paganism, or the poster. Yes, FoG has annoyed me also, but he is polite, and will debate. It is FUN to disagree with him, so I will miss him, even tho we represent near polar opposites in a faith.

Let us just face facts: there are 2 things this Board is intolerant of- Christianity, and ignorance. And while I will admit the 2 come together WAY too often for my liking, they are not the same.

OK, you are not goig to agree with me, but think about it.

31

umm…bullshit.

the teadition of witchcraft UNDER THAT NAME has been used for hundreds of years. It was the CHRISTIANS who made the witchcraft/satanism parallel. And Anton LeVey, who is a notorious whackjob.

32

Now that’s simply not so. FoG got busted on be cause he talked atpeople, not to them. He also never participated in genral debates, he only wanted a captive argument to witness at. The Bible teaches that witnessing without compassion is wrong (I Cor. 1:1-15), so even by his own standards, FoG was in the wrong.

Darkrose, OTOH, isn’t attempting to convert people so much as plead for respect for her religion.

Now to bust on Darkrose a bit. What gets me about so-called Wiccans is that their rituals and ceremonies seem based more on a hodgepodge of Theosophy, Masonic ritual, and a healthy dose of J.R.R. Tolkien. I have yet to come across any Wiccans who actually practice the ancient religion of the Celts who inhabited Britain when the Romans came. Goodness knows we have enough accounts of their beliefs and ceremonies, although they were written by the Romans, who had a strong bias against the Druids.

Check out Frazer’s The Golden Bough for real pagan ceremonies. And also check out the movie *The Wicker Man * which got the overall tone of ancient British beliefs accurately.

Although I have to say, I infinitely prefer Wiccans over Christians. Any religion that celebrates fertility, sexuality, and the creation of life beats the sad, dreary, repression of the twice-born.

33

Danielinthewolvesden wrote:

However, prepare for one of my “rants”. One of the reasons, and the biggest single reason wiccans/neopagans have a problem with public perceptions is they insist on calling themselves “Witches”. Now, there are “other” witches, the original claimants to the title, and who still use that title to refer to themselves to this day- the Satanists. Now, wicca/neopaganism is about are far away from Satanism as a religion can be, but Wiccans still insist on calling what they do “witchcraft”, even tho they know very well the
poor public perception of that “loaded” word. However, there is a group of folks that WANT to be percieved of as “bad”, and insist on using that word. Well, Ok, but when folks get you mixed up with the REAL “witches”, don’t whine about poor public perceptions

DitWD, I basically agree with you here, that the use of the word witch is part of the problem of the negative image that Wicca and Neo-Paganism has in general. I wish it was dropped. There’s simply too much emotional, negative baggage associated with it. shrug 'Sides, I look terrible in black and that damned conical hat is a bitch to keep on, especially when you’re flying on your broom, especially at low altitudes. Yeesh, the things we do in service to the Gods! :smiley:

Have you read Isaac Bonewits’s Real Magic? He goes a discussion of how the term witch is so loaded that a descriptor adjective is necessary to help clarify things. Another book I highly recommend.

34

Buncha stuff.

First, I’ve met more pagans online than I ever did in real life. Probably because the relative anonymity and “distance” of posting allows more openness.

Second, this board being what it is, a witch is honorbound to put up, shut up, or go with the flow, same as a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or a IPUnist. Magick? Show me some evidence. Give me verifiable anecdotal case histories. Or whatever. I’ve produced what little evidence I can for my beliefs (in an active Christian God, if it makes a difference to you). So have others. We’ve described our conversions, the occasional “miracle” story – quotes because we attribute the event described to miraculous intervention, and others’ mileage may vary.

I respect the sincerity of your beliefs, darkrose (until and unless you give me reason to doubt them, at least). As I do the several non-wiccan pagans I consider online friends…two of whom I’ve met in real life as well. And I’d ask them for the same proof – although one of them probably has demonstrated one apparent power, at least in sustained effort…how long does it take to change one’s clothes, anyway? :wink: Or “I like it being small and personal.” I understand the last part clearly, but do you want to emend the antepenultimate word, Falcon? :smiley:

And just for the record, there are a few “out” fundamentalist Christians on the board who “play by the rules” – state your opinions; if you assert a fact, be prepared to back it up; disagree without being disagreeable; talk with others, not to them; and so on. And they generally don’t get slammed either. (Except when, as happened recently, their beliefs happen not to be PC – a topic I want to pursue somewhere down the road, not here.)

And Daniel, in my experience, the board is not intolerant of Christianity, just unsupported dogmatism. In your faith, you should be really clear on the difference. Peace.

35

Polycarp, try here.

36

Danielinthewolvesden:

I responded to your post with a Pit thread. Please feel free to drop by…

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=36769

Yer pal,
Satan

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37

Atheist here. But I do have a good idea about why Christians don’t like witches. It probably has something to do with Exodus 22:18: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Other Biblical injunctions regarding witches and the like:

“There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.” (Deuteronomy 18:10)

“For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.” (I Samuel 15:23)

“And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers” (Micah 5:12)

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)
So, it’s not too surprising that Chrsistians are not especially tolerant of Wiccan beliefs.

(And hey, I’m just quoting here. Me, I don’t care what religion you practice.)

38

talk about a ‘broad’ generalization…

I had no idea that ALL Pagans and witches were looked at as evil.

I know that Wicca and other pagan belief systems are, for the most part, not taken seriously or legitimately by many others (as far as being a ‘religion’ and a lifestyle). Many pagans and wiccans have jumped’ out of the ‘broom closet’ only within the last 2 decades…now turn on your television…if you watch it (I rarely do)…there’s that show, ‘charmed’ as well as a myriad of others (sabrina, the worst witch, etc…) that as we speak, are debunking SOME of the beliefs and paranoias that others have long maintained. Cybil Shepperd thanked the Goddess and said blessed be at the emmy’s…I actually liked the movie ‘Practical Magic’…and a friend told me that when people would ask her about me and my ‘religion’, she would tell them to go watch it and that the Sandra Bullock character was basically ‘Dylan’…LOL…don’t I wish…

I must say that I disagree with the OP…I don’t believe that ALL witches and Pagans are looked at as evil…

as for being mad that some are still perceived as ‘fakes’, well then, maybe the ‘fakes’ should stop taking advantage of people, or stop getting caught…for hundreds of years, there have been people who dedicated themselves to de-bunking the ‘myth of magic’…Harry Houdini showed that quite a few of the self-proclaimed witches and magicians of his day were a bunch of frauds…it is difficult to change the mass opinion and general mistrust (and centuries of conditioning that ‘magic’ is inherently evil) in the short time most pagans have ‘rallied en mass’.

maybe it is up to the believers and practitioners of these faiths and beliefs to change the misconceptions about themselves…
I have actually come across quite a few people who were genuinely interested in my personal religious beliefs. I have of course, also come across the proverbial skeptic with the raised eyebrow…

I have never been looked at as evil, that I know of, and the only persecution I have ever felt is that due to my step-son and custody issues, (there is precedent for parents to lose custody due to paganism in the past)I can’t live my life as blatantly pagan as I would like to.

as for everyone having their own ‘magic’…well that is a personal belief…someone who doesn’t believe in the existence of ‘everyday magic’ will of course, not believe that they have possession of any…

I am a big poofy marshmallow of emotions, the world’s biggest suck (I still cry at UNICEF commercials), and I like to think I see the magic in people…whether or not they themselves believe it…it is MY personal belief…

for instance, I ‘see’ the ‘magic’ between Satan and Drainbead…

I felt and miss the ‘magic’ wrought by Wally…
I just don’t think you have a valid point with the OP.

39

It is always good to listen to Polycarp. He is quite intelligent and convincing. :slight_smile: I assume the other online non-Wiccan pagan friend you were referring to was myself. HUGS!

Back to the OP. Really only radical right/fundamentalists view Paganism as evil in my experience. Really any religious person who has absolute beliefs regarding spirituality and related topics goes out of their way to make someone with differing beliefs feel oppressed that way. I usually account this to insecurity on their part.

So you know, religious branches that are highly fundamentalist (like Southern Baptists) oftentimes don’t even consider other Christian religions to be good or even Christian. Those dips, go to LBMB if you want a few examples (not that everyone there is a Dip…some of them are quite interesting and accepting), range the gamut of total wackos to normal people. You can find a lot of Catholic bashing there too. My point is that the same people who would call us evil for being Pagan would also call other Christians who aren’t belief X evil and wrong also.

Why do they do it? Insecurity I think answers that question completely. They have to convince themselves that their beliefs are right and make sure everyone agrees with them. Look at Jerry Falwell. He is one of those nutjobs similar to the ones I mentioned earlier. He goes out of his way to make gay people feel uncomfortable and unwanted. The last five pride parades I have been to had his followers/protesters there. Anyway, they were almost always counter protested with signs that said something like, “Jerry come out of the closet, arrested for having sex with a man in a public rest stop 196?-197?.” They had pamphlets with the actual court documents. Granted they could have been faked but his vehemence against homosexuality makes me believe that he is in some major form of denial. There is a similar relationship between Christians vs. Pagans. I can’t think of many specific examples but usually the people that are most against paganism are the ones who have enough insecurity about the world they live in that there can be no derivations of faith that are unlike theirs in the world. Some are even envious of Pagan Christians like Falwell is envious of gays. To go even a step further, little kids in elementary school tend to torment kids of the opposite sex (assuming they are straight) whom they really like. You see that type of thing happening all the time. They think if they pay attention to the other person and that person notices than they are making progress. Sometimes it is just because they are pricks but most human actions have some type of meaning.

HUGS!
Sqrl

PS. Never abbreviate Danielinthewolvesden to Ditwd. I read it as Dit-Wad and thought it was insulting (a little funny but still insulting). I am sure Daniel would suffice. :slight_smile:

40

Wow. I didn’t think of it that way.

Yes, I can think of what we have - among other things - can be “magical,” and I think that positive vibes and good mental health can help ones physical health.

I guess it depends on your definitions of “magic” here. The definition I am using is the Hollywood/D&D version, and maybe that’s a shortcoming in myself.

Thanks for noticing, by the way.

Yer pal,
Satan

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