# Why are Americans (and some Canucks) SOOOOO conservative about metric? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2007, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507 "2007-08-30T15:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/101 "2007-08-31T22:24:01Z")
[QUOTE=MarcusF] Of course the UK is in the same situation but we have partly made the transition to using metric for everyday - my kids always use cm/mm - except when talking about their height. 😃 [/QUOTE] An unintentional example from a local butcher: Me - a kilo of steak mince, please Him - what, you mean two pounds, then? Me - so you do metric, then? You’re quite right, and there’s many people who are actually more comfortable with using metric measurement in everyday life than they realise. They’re making conversions on the fly, but if you challenge them with “which system do you prefer”, of course they say imperial. (Rather like asking people their religion, then comparing it to Church of England attendances.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/102 "2007-08-31T22:43:19Z")
It’s doubtful Americans are ever going to buy into the metric system if Celsius is part of the package. “It’s 30C in the shade” just doesn’t resonate. The change from Fahrenheit would also piss off gardeners used to their particular microclimates and the precise temps at which plants will suffer damage. Plus, I’m not gonna stay up and watch “Celsius 232.7777777777778” on the late night movie channel. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/103 "2007-08-31T22:51:16Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Not sure you know this, but my Father taught me long a go a very simple formula for doing the 24 hour time conversion. It goes like this: Take any time in a 24 hout format after passing 12:00, subtract two…and voila! there’s your time. Examples: A-13:00 - 2 = 11, get rid of the initial number and you have 1:00 PM [/QUOTE] Am I being whooshed here? This is just a circuitious way of subtracting 12. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/104 "2007-08-31T22:58:59Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Am I being whooshed here? This is just a circuitious way of subtracting 12. [/QUOTE] I don’t think you are. Some people can’t subtract 12 from 19 quite as quick as they can subtract 2 from 9. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/105 "2007-08-31T23:01:09Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Am I being whooshed here? This is just a circuitious way of subtracting 12. [/QUOTE] Nope. Guess it’s how you learn it. I know that’s how I’ve done it since day one. And I don’t need to think while doing it. Different strokes for different folks I guess, but 23-2 seems a tad easier than 23-12. And if my Dad thought me this ‘system’ over forty years ago – when he was well over forty himself, I suspect it goes back some way. In fact, in Spain it is regularly explained this way. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/106 "2007-08-31T23:07:33Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Am I being whooshed here? This is just a circuitious way of subtracting 12. [/QUOTE] Nope. Guess it’s how you learn it. I know that’s how I’ve done it since day one. And I don’t need to think while doing it. Different strokes for different folks I guess, but 23-2 seems a tad easier than 23-12. And if my Dad thought me this ‘system’ over forty years ago – when he was well over forty himself, I suspect it goes back some way. In fact, in Spain it is regularly explained in this fashion as my American born nephew came to learn it while doing his Masters there. He’s now totally comfortable with it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/107 "2007-08-31T23:12:41Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] I don’t think you are. Some people can’t subtract 12 from 19 quite as quick as they can subtract 2 from 9. [/QUOTE] Exactly. That’s the **overall** success of the system. It wasn’t made with SDMB members in mind, but rather for the average and or below average person to be able grasp. Thus making it all the easier for the more intelligent folk. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/108 "2007-08-31T23:13:01Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] I don’t think you are. Some people can’t subtract 12 from 19 quite as quick as they can subtract 2 from 9. [/QUOTE] I can’t tell for sure now, because I’m thinking too much about it, but I’m pretty sure that’s how I always mentally subtract numbers anyway - subtract the units, then the tens. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/109 "2007-08-31T23:17:15Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I can’t tell for sure now, because I’m thinking too much about it, but I’m pretty sure that’s how I always mentally subtract numbers anyway - subtract the units, then the tens. [/QUOTE] As do I – but unlike most people “out there” not everyone is as smart or well-educated as the crowd here. Trust me, I am not fibbing. What would be the motive? Make my late Father look like a dork when he was rather a very intelligent man? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Sable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Martin\_Sable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Sable)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/110 "2007-08-31T23:26:59Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Universal? So everybody finds \<100 OK, but \>100 hot? Humidity isn’t the slightest issue? Of course, it’s all so obvious now :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] I didn’t say either of those things. I said a temperature in triple digits means the outside air will now be warmer than your internal body temperature. Do you not understand what makes that significant, regardless of other factors? Yes, of course humidity affects comfort, as does wind speed, and exposed skin area. And of course people have varying ideas of what’s “too hot.” These factors don’t change average internal human body temperature. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/111 "2007-08-31T23:28:26Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] As do I – but unlike most people “out there” not everyone is as smart or well-educated as the crowd here. Trust me, I am not fibbing. What would be the motive? Make my late Father look like a dork when he was rather a very intelligent man? [/QUOTE] Sorry, I just mistook it for an elaborately-constructed whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/112 "2007-08-31T23:41:16Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Sorry, I just mistook it for an elaborately-constructed whoosh. [/QUOTE] No worries or apologies needed. Thank you anyway. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2007, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/113 "2007-08-31T23:50:32Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Sable] I didn’t say either of those things. I said a temperature in triple digits means the outside air will now be warmer than your internal body temperature. Do you not understand what makes that significant, regardless of other factors? [/QUOTE] My point was precisely the opposite, that all the other factors are (in this case) essential and fundamental. I can function fine in a dry 40c, but struggle in a humid 25c. Am I some freak of nature, that I am not part of this ‘universal’? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Sable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Martin\_Sable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Sable)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2007, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/114 "2007-09-01T01:05:49Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] I some freak of nature, that I am not part of this ‘universal’? [/QUOTE] I think one or both of is misunderstanding the other, because we’re talking past each other here about completely different things. From my original post: [QUOTE=Martin Sable] It’s not even universally true. Zero and 100 C are not the melting/boiling points of water on, say, the surface of Mars. Even on Earth, it varies with salinity and pressure/altitude…“Temperature will rise into the triple digits today!” means the outside air will be warmer than your internal body temperature. In terms of comfort, that’s a very significant and not at all arbitrary. (It’s also universal, i.e. true regardless of salinity or pressure or what planet you’re on.) [/QUOTE] Human core body temperature, approximately, is **universally** just about 100 F (as I said, Gabriel Fahrenheit missed a bit, but close enough), regardless of humidity or whether you’re standing on Earth or Mars. You know how kids are told, “Wear a hat, because you lose most of your heat through your head?” That’s because, most of the time, we’re enveloped in an ocean of air that’s _colder_ than our own internal core temperature. On the rare occasions when temperatures rise into triple digits, suddenly the environment we’re enveloped in is _warmer_ than our core body temperature. That’s a physiologically significant change, regardless of any additional factors such as humidity, wind, etc. That _doesn’t_ mean humidity, wind and other factors don’t have additional influence as well, and I’m not sure what’s making you think I said that. If you still don’t see what I’m getting at, chalk it up to poor communication skills on my part. There’s no point in our wasting time arguing over what’s probably just a minor semantic misunderstanding. I don’t dispute any of the things you’ve said about humidity and comfort; or see what bearing that has on what I said. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2007, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/115 "2007-09-02T09:47:36Z")
But if you’re worrying about the ambient temperature rising above average body temp at 100 F - which you acknowledge isn’t precise - dosen’t this work just as well with 40C? 40C is a bit further from the “normal” core temperature than 100F but it is probably close enough. Anyway - as others have noted - using Celcius rather than Fahrenheit is a side issue in the metric debate. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/116 "2007-09-04T06:08:32Z")
ust seems to me to be slightly stupid that our engineers and our scientists should be using different measurement systems. Seems to me that one of the systems ought to go away. I don’t think the metric system will be the one to go away. It is better (much simpler), but - admittedly - most clearly only when different American units would be needed. A lot of times, those circumstances just don’t come up. Other times, when they do come up, they’re in specialized trades where those doing the measuring have been using the conversions for so long, they’re second nature. For a while there, I was helping a friend with a small boat that used a two-stroke engine, oil-gas mixture. Take 5 gallons of gas and mix in oil at 50 to 1 (I think). How much oil is that? Simple to anyone who does it all the time, probably. (Sure, it’s 1/10 of a gallon. Now where’s that can marked off in tenths of a gallon?) I haven’t been too impressed with the argument that a foot is easily divided by multiple divisors - there’s no reason you can’t do the same thing in the metric system, if that’s what’s bothering you, Bunky. A foot is close enough to 300 mm, and 300 is evenly divisible by as many numbers as 12, plus a couple more. =========== The metric system will continue to advance here, I think. We’ll get more used to metric socket wrench sizes, we’ll spend more time in Ikea and figure that just this once, we might as well use them centimeter thingies for figuring how well the new cabinet will fit. It’s just easier to compare 134.5 cm to 132 cm than it is to compare 4’5" to 52". They sell soda pop by the liter, so what’s really wrong with picking up a liter of milk? Or four liters, for that matter? It will happen eventually, I think. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/117 "2007-09-04T15:41:33Z")
I hope we will go metric, but there is something to be said for the Imperial system all the same. From George Orwell’s “As I Please” column, published in the Tribune, March 14, 1947: > [@](#): > > Another thing I am against in advance [in addition to simplified spelling] – for it is bound to be suggested sooner or later – is the complete scrapping of our present system of weights and measures. > > Obviously you have got to use the metric system of certain purposes. For scientific work it has long been in use, and it is also needed for tools and machinery, especially if you want to export them. But there is a strong case for keeping on the old measurements for use in everyday life. One reason is that the metric system does not possess, or has not succeeded in establishing, a large number of units that can be visualized. There is, for instance, effectively no unit between the metre, which is more than a yard, and the centimetre, which is less than half an inch. In English you can describe someone as being five feet three inches high, or five feet nine inches, or six feet one inch, and your hearer will know fairly accurately what you mean. But I have never heard a Frenchman say, “He is a hundred and forty-two centimetres high”; it would not convey any visual image. So also with various other measurements. Rods and acres, pints, quarts and gallons, pounds, stones and hundredweights, are all of them units with which we are intimately familiar, and we should be slightly poorer without them. Actually, in countries where the metric system is in force a few of the old measurements tend to linger on for everyday purposes, although officially discouraged. > > There is also the literary consideration, which cannot be left quite out of account. The names of the units in the old system are short homely words which lend themselves to vigorous speech. Putting a quart into a pint pot is a good image, which could hardly be expressed in the metric system. Also, the literature of the past deals only in the old measurements, and many passages would become an irritation if one had to do a sum in arithmetic when one read them, as one does with those tiresome versts in a Russian novel. > > The emmet’s inch and eagle’s mile > Make lame philosophy to smile: > > fancy having to turn that into millimetres! ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/118 "2007-09-04T15:45:30Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > It’s like learning a second language. Even if you get good at it, you still think naturally in the language you grew up learning You can’t really make that comparison. Using the English “system” of measurements means using more than one set of measurements every day. When I’m figuring out how much plywood to order, I don’t figure it out in acres. I’ve never calculated the dosage of medicine in gallons. Since you’re already thinking in inches, feet, yards, miles, and so forth, why is it so hard to throw meters into the mix? [QUOTE=initech] What’s wrong with the English foot? It’s a nice, workable size. About the size of, I don’t know, a foot. It can divide cleanly into two parts, or three, or four, or six. The inch divides cleanly into two, four or eight parts (hell, even 6, if you’re a printer). Metric units divide into 2 or 5 parts. That’s it. After that, we have to bring out the decimal. [/QUOTE] You’ve _got_ to be joking here. Whoosh, right? How, precisely, does an inch divide into 8 parts better than a meter does? An eighth of an inch is 0.125 inches. An eighth of a meter is 125 millimeters. [QUOTE=initech] Plus, I don’t care what frame of reference you’re accustomed to, 30 degrees isn’t hot. 30 isn’t a lot. It’s some. A hundred is a lot. A hundred dollars, a hundred years, a hundred degrees: rich, old and hot. Thirty: poor, young and freezing. [/QUOTE] Oh, you’re quite right. Thirty people in my house isn’t a lot, nor is thirty gallons of milk for the fridge. A 30-pound book wouldn’t be heavy, nor would a 30-ton truck be big. Thirty is never a lot. Sheesh. [QUOTE=elmwood] Americans seem very conservative when it comes to _anything_ involving units of measurement. Take money, for example, especially the lack of a dollar coin (“WAAAAH! Dollar coins will make holes in my pockets! Paper is easier to carry!”),the dated, user-unfriendly design of our currency (“WAAAAH! I don’t like seeing color on ten and twenty dollar bills! It looks like Monopoly money!”), or the design of our coins (mostly unchanged from the 1930s, no numbers actually appearing on the coins, “WAAAAH! Jefferson’s face is in a profile in the new nickels”, etc.). [/QUOTE] But we _do_ have dollar coins (there’s a new presidential series now), we _do_ have color in most of the bills, and we _do_ have new designs. It’s not all for the numismatists, you know. At my bookstore, I give out two dollar bills and dollar coins in change every day. Most people get excited about the twos, a few are blase, and perhaps one in a hundred gives it back and asks for dollar bills. Over half of the people I give dollar coins to ask for a dollar bill instead, but quite a few check them and ask if they can buy another. ---
**Author:** ![Tibidabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Tibidabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibidabo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/119 "2007-09-07T09:35:05Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] What’s hard to understand? I’m used to using Farenheit, I’ve used it all my life, and 90 Farenheit is going to mean something to me that 30 Celsius won’t. I’m sure if America converted to metric, I could use Celsius, but I’m probably going to keep on thinking in Farenheit. It’s like learning a second language. Even if you get good at it, you still think naturally in the language you grew up learning [/QUOTE] I think it’s a bit dramatic to say learning a new measurement system is like learning a second language… In scale and effort it’s more comparable to replacing a few words and phrases. What you said applies, but it’s hardly going to take decades to perfect. Took me a few months at most to fully and completely adjust to the Euro, without having to mentally refer to the Irish Pound (Punt). ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507/120 "2007-09-07T21:39:51Z")
“Let there be one measure of wine throughout our whole realm… And one width of cloth(whether dyed, or russet, or ‘halberget’), to wit, two ells within the salvages; of weights also let it be as of measures.” -John, by the grace of God king of England, lord of Ireland, duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and count of Anjou, 1215 I wonder what the creators of the Magna Charta would have thought about spending the next 800 years struggling with a mix of systems, to save a few years inconvenience brought on by standardizing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-americans-and-some-canucks-sooooo-conservative-about-metric/417507.md?page=7)