No, I am saying that there are many white Americans who would rather be white and poor than rich and black, and would make that choice without a moment’s hesitation.
I’m not sure how I would choose. Being black in America brings a lot of cultural baggage with it. No disrespect intended, but I don’t want to raised by people who talk ebonics, I hate the sound of it.
Even more, that is, than I hate the white Southern drawl. shudder Og, I’d almost rather hear Fran Drescher doing the Queens thing than hear Dixie talk!
If Ah had muh druthers.
That’s absolutely true. I think the issue is that there are a lot of things listed by McIntosh in her famous essay that aren’t really “privileges” at all, or even racially motivated. For example, one of the things listed as a daily effect of white privilege is: " I can chose blemish cover or bandages in “flesh” color and have them more or less match my skin.".
That’s not racist, white privilege or anything else. It’s simple numbers. When 72% of the country is white, and the other 28% is various hues, it makes sense to produce band-aids in a relatively neutral “white” shade. Or, like a lot of makers do, make them in clear plastic.
It’s that kind of nonsense that kind of annoys people about the concept of “privilege”. Most of the others are pretty much like I was saying, ways that some group (in this case black people) are fucked around, rather than actual “privileges” afforded to white people. It’s a peculiar reversal of the word; saying that as a white man, I’m privileged because “I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.” is incorrect- that should be that baseline I was talking about, not a consequence of privilege.
Actually I find my experience in being a complete asshole useful in understanding and empathizing with others in such cases.
Regards,
Shodan
The claim isn’t that there is a racist motivation behind the phenomenon. (Again, this just shows that you guys are completely misunderstanding the idea.) The claim is that it is a way in which white people, generally, have a more positive baseline experience than black people, generally, in a way which many people aren’t even aware is a dimension of experience at all. It just feels “natural” to them. No one is to blame for this particular one. No one is guilty of something. It’s just an important thing to remember in some contexts.
Who the fuck cares whether the word used for this is “privilege” or “pizza”? Call it white pizza if you like, who cares? It’s a fact, and a fact that makes a difference. Something people should be thinking about, not avoiding by focusing on arguments about supposed connotations in some particular word.
“Yeah, that’s another things we left the blacks out of, flesh-colored bandages. Left out a lotta white people too . . . I don’t know anybody that color, it’s kind of off-coffee. I never met anybody with their pores laid out in a grid like that, either! Science fiction!”
– George Carlin
I hate that essay- because it conflates the idea of being in the majority and being privileged. There are plenty of things on that list that don’t apply to me - because even though I’m white, I am not in the majority at my job or among my social group and cannot arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time. So I am often asked to speak for people of my racial group ( and am often told “We forgot you’re white” when something offensive is said.) At work, I can’t remain oblivious of different languages and cultures of persons of color without penalty (although I can ignore the languages and cultures of non-American, non English-speaking, non-Hispanic white people without penalty). Does that automatically mean the non-whites who surround me are more privileged than I am? Or does it maybe just mean that if 80% of the office is West Indian chances are the food at the potluck will also be predominantly West Indian?
I do, because “privilege” has a clear and well-defined meaning, and this usage is absolutely not correct, and has implications beyond the basic concept.
Like I was saying, in no way does not having medium-chocolate band-aids available constitute some sort of “privilege” for white people. It may mean that black people feel somewhat underserved by the bandaid makers, and that it’s a consequence of being a minority.
But using the word “privilege” implies that I get something especially positive or advantageous, which isn’t the case at all.
I mean, I’m aware that there are a lot of things that are different for me by virtue of being part of the majority group that aren’t that way for others, but when it’s portrayed as both a “white” thing and a “privilege” thing, both of those terms come with a lot of baggage that is in large part irrelevant to this concept, and that’s part of what people get so torqued about.
The other thing is that when it’s used in ways like 'Check your privilege", the basic implication is that since you’re white, your views and opinions are automatically tainted by this supposed “privilege”, and therefore invalid or irrelevant. Which isn’t the case at all.
Yes. The problem with using the word “privilege” is it has connotations of an extra advantage that is inaccessible to most. And so most people don’t feel like they are privileged, because their peers are mostly people with the similar advantages.
That is the problem: most people associate with people similar to themselves and so they do not see any privilege.
The phrase “check your privilege” thus fails because it seemingly does not apply to listener in their own mind. They become defensive and don’t hear what the intent of the phrase is. So it’s not very useful in educating people (but does work well at antagonizing them).
Instead, I’d recommend phrases like “try walking in their shoes” or “look at it from their perspective” or “imagine if you traded places”, etc. These phrases create empathy rather than divisions.
But then you don’t get to tell people to shut up!
I don’t see it. To me it seems “S has a privilege” means “S has access to a good which not necessarily every person has access to.” What does it mean to you, if not that?
If they do not understand their own privilege, they will not know what it means to walk in the shoes of the others, won’t know what the others’ perspective looks like, won’t know what it would be like to trade places with them.
An understanding of one’s own privileges is a crucial precursor to the kind of empathetic exercise you’re talking about.
I agree. I think that few folks would rather be a homeless white dude than Oprah. But that’s not quite the right question.
Debaser, for the sake of argument, I’m going to assume you’re a middle-class straight white guy. And I’m going to make you a deal: you can exchange, not the identity, but simply the social status, of any of those three aspects of your identity. That is, you can trade the social status of being straight for the social status of being gay. Or you can change the social implications of being white for the social implications of being black.
How much would you be willing to pay to make that trade? Your choice which one.
Most straight folks wouldn’t be interested in paying anything to trade for the social status of being gay. Most white folks wouldn’t pay anything for the social status of being black. And so on.
So, fine. How much would I have to pay you to take on one of those statuses? Let’s leave everything else the same except for how folks would treat you if you were black. Sure–affirmative action fun is yours now! And you’ll get certain looks when you walk down the street at night! And taxi drivers will treat you like they treat black men! And when you walk into a business, you’ll be treated as if you were a black man! How much do I need to pay you to make that switch?
Scalzi’s “easy game settings” is a helpful way to think about it. There are all sorts of toggles on this game: play as a man (easier) or a woman (harder)? Play as a white person (easier) or a black person (harder)? Play as a straight person (easier) or as a gay person (harder)? Play as a rich person (easier) or a poor person (harder)?
If you move one setting, say, wealth, all the way to the “easier” end, you can move some other settings toward the harder end and still have an easier gameplay experience than someone who sets race and gender to white male but sets wealth all the way to the “harder” end.
But if you want to talk about privilege, you talk about just one setting. If you’re poor and homeless, would you rather be poor and homeless and a man, or poor and homeless and a woman?
There’s no question in my mind.
I have to disagree. Thinking about what it’d feel like to be in another’s situation is how most people develop empathy.
Yeah, people who cannot perceive that there are imbalances can’t then walk in other people’s shoes. They think they are when they say things like “If you want to start a business, borrow from your parents.”
You can’t disagree, it’s a purely logical point. 
If you don’t know how you are different from the other person, it’s impossible for you to think about what it would feel like to be in their situation.
As a young black we tend to believe whites don’t trust us the first time they see us. The internet hasn’t done much to quell this belief. Then again we see a lot of young blacks acting stupid in videos, more often violent than their white counterparts. But this isn’t tied to race so much as socioeconomic background. Most of our perceived differences, true or not, are based on culture.
That’s slightly different. You are talking about realizing that it is hard to be poor and nice to be rich - which can develop empathy. We’re talking about not taking your own circumstances as a given. I suspect that many people who work hard for the poor are just as blind to their own privilege as some who would want to give the poor nothing.
We’re talking past each other: knowing vs feeling.
Of course I can think about being you, while knowing nothing about you–and I’d quite likely be wrong on many points. But not all, because we’re both humans with a lot of similarities. And my feelings of empathy for you would be real. That empathy will lead me to learning about you and actually caring about it.
“Check your privilege” makes me defensive. You’re saying something that doesn’t seem true and you’re saying I’m not like you. Why should I care about you? I’ll just protect mine own interests and take you at your word that we’re too different to have anything in common.
(I’m not being personal; it’s simply easier to use pronouns than more generic words.)
“Bleeding heart liberal” is a feature, not a bug.
Yes, I absolutely agree. My point is “check your privilege” does nothing to educate but instead creates animosity. It’s counter productive to getting people to want to recognize the systemic advantages they have.
I don’t read that as a disagreement; rather, it’s a misunderstanding of what it means to think about one’s privileges.
To take a fairly trivial example, when I walk into a store, I might be concerned about the cost of items. I might be concerned about whether my children will behave. I might be concerned about whether I have enough time to shop before I need to get home and make dinner. But I won’t be concerned about whether the store manager will look at my skin and suspect me of being a shoplifter. The thought won’t even enter my head.
That’s privilege. And if folks hadn’t pointed it out to me, I wouldn’t be able to think about what it’d feel like to be in another’s situation.
Of course I don’t feel guilty about that privilege: what kind of idiot would feel guilty about not worrying about whether a manager is racist? But if I want to empathize, I need to be aware of that aspect of my experience, and how it differs from the experience of others. And “privilege” is a decent word for that thing I need to be aware of.